[SPOILERS] Rusten prepares to face the music

[Rusten]

I'll try to find the time to update this thread often once things get underway.

Civ pw:

rtrmod

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Milestones:
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Player lineup:

1) dtay - Genghis Khan (Agg/Imp) of Celtia
2) superdeath - Churchill (Cha/Pro) of the Native Americans
3) Mr. Cairo - Saladin (Pro/Spi) of Russia
4) B4ndit - Zara Yaqob (Cre/Org) of Sumeria
5) Rusten - Cyrus (Cha/Imp) of Arabia
6) Donovan Zoi - Pacal (Exp/Fin) of Maya
7) Gavagai - Mehmed (Exp/Org) of Egypt
8) Shallow Old Human Tourist - Augustus (Imp/Ind) of Persia
9) GermanJoey - Charlemagne (Imp/Pro) of Mongolia
10) Dreylin - Roosevelt (Ind/Org) of the Vikings
11) OT4E and Chumchu - Qin Shi Huang (Ind/Pro) of Carthage
12) Dark Savant - Joao (Exp/Imp) of Byzantium
13) 2metraninja - Napoleon (Cha/Org) of the Aztecs
14) Mackoti - Suleiman (Imp/Phi) of France
15) The Black Sword - Pericles (Cre/Phi) of Zulu
16) AdrienIer - Mao (Exp/Pro) of Mali
17) Pindicator - Hammurabi (Agg/Org) of China
18) WilliamLP - Tokugawa (Agg/Pro) of Japan
19) Commodore - Kublai Khan (Cha/Cre) of Rome
20) naufrager - Julius Caesar (Imp/Org) of Germany
21) plako - Justinian (Imp/Spi) of Inca
22) elkad - Shaka (Agg/Exp) of Korea
23) spacetyrantxenu - Hatshepsut (Cre/Spi) of Greece
24) Boldly Going Nowhere - Boudica (Agg/Cha) of Khmer
25) Aretas - Ragnar (Agg/Fin) of Holy Rome

Summary of key ideas from pre-game brainstorming:
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showt...#pid661256

Summary of pre-game brainstorming or: How we will win this game if all goes according to plan

No plan survives contact with the enemy, but here's a list of our current tactical and strategical advantages (as I see it). The overarching game plan.

Machinery bulb:
Inland start without fishing. MC is cheap in this mod. Crossbows are a great answer to the beefed up RtR swordsmen on the defense as well as great stack defense in enemy territory. Discourages dogpiles (easier to defend on multiple fronts so we can go attack with less paranoia). Speeds up guilds (knights are great and CAs only add to their strength).
Early religion:
Perfect starting techs means it barely slows the early game. Guaranteed shrine later. Theocracy combined with IMP/CHA may result in important promotions later on (blitz and commando). OR is a strong civic and encourages early forges.
Early aesthetics:
CHA+ SoZ. Early happy surplus (can beeline). Build GL for early machinery bulb followed by GA. Could consider grabbing aesthetics with the Oracle, but I imagine there will be competition for it. Not willing to sacrifice the early game too much for this. Will reassess Oracle timeline after the first ~40 turns.
Madrassa:
~52 hammer library with CHA. The +4 culture will pop borders in no time and win potential "culture wars" where we share border with rivals. If we plant a hill city on a natural border and put crossbows in garrison it will dissuade attacks.
Golden ages:
Easy access to priest slots means it's a piece of cake to start our 2nd GA. Does not require extreme planning or turns of caste. As a result we can possibly do an early 1st GA. A Vassalage+serfdom (on the path to guilds) and possibly theocracy swap together with first GA comes to mind as an option. Prepare UBERmills in advance (RtR watermills and windmills). Run priests during GA for shrine+2nd GA priest.
Imperialistic: 
Cheaper settlers free up hammers for wonders and/or working commerce tiles.

Quick IMP expansion into aesthetics+lit wonders into machinery bulb into guilds path. Can eat an "easy" opponent with xbows+siege+swords --> attack a more difficult target with CAs (possibly with tech advantage).

Thoughts on early settling (pretty scattered but this post gives an idea)
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showt...#pid666519

As this thread is currently functioning as a monologue I will take on the role as the concerned bystander. Some of this will be repeated information, but it's useful for me to write up the big picture.

Question: Why settle the first two (!) cities so close? Aren't you worried about missing out on land? You're hardly picking up new resources in the short term.

My argument is that settling cities such as this (crab lake into corn-copper) is very strong with the imperialistic trait. When settlers come so cheap it's more of a case of available worker turns and not crashing the economy. I will still have aggressive plants at a suitable time, together with units.

These two cities would be settled at some point anyway so the city count maintenance is not an issue. They have good commerce output and will be a net gain for the foreseeable future. But most importantly they have a resource already improved from T1, thus requiring much less worker turns. Worker turns are extremely valuable at this stage and then decreases in value as the game goes on.

Imagine a scenario where I settle corn+gems early, which is still pretty close. Say I bring 1 worker. Then I need 3-4 turns to reach the corn tile and then 5 turns to farm it (yes I know, tile effectively ready after 4). That's 8-9 worker turns. You know what else could be done with 8 worker turns? I could chop 2 forests for 40 hammers, that's more than half the cost of a new settler.

Now look at the output. Corn city does not have a network (-1) and no riverside tiles (-1). That's already 2 commerce less per turn from the first turn it's settled.
It would also be behind on production. A city with wet corn already improved will grow to size 2 by the time the corn is ready to be worked in the corn+gems city. Now of course this tile is taken away from Kaputt rather than being added to the empire, but that's of little concern until Kaputt wants to grow again, and by that time these cities have their own independent resources. Working a 5F rice for instance is WORSE than working a mine for settler production*. So taking this tile away (temporarily) does not bother Kaputt.

TLDR: Overlap cities get off to a much quicker start. Cities settled close are productive so much sooner that they can contribute to the early settling phase rather than being a burden and requiring protection (whip axe/spear on size 2). They'll also be able to work cottages for Kaputt.

[RefSteel]

Here are the choices we rolled for you - when you've decided whether to keep the civ or reroll it, and which (if either) of the leaders you want to keep, post the inforrmation here to let us know.

Options:
Cyrus (Cha/Imp)
Darius (Fin/Org)
Arabia

Your start:

The essential form of the BFC may be relied upon, though we might still make superficial changes e.g. to whether the trees are deciduous, conifers, or snowy, and we might imaginably even rotate the whole thing 90 degrees or something since the surrounding terrain is still being finalized. The corner tiles may yet change, and the fog is a fabric of lies, but at least you've got your start!

Also, in case it's not obvious due to the resource icon partly blocking the yield icons, note that your elephants live in a forest.

[Rusten]

Thanks! Persians, eh?

Pretty set on keeping Cyrus. Good and interesting/fun traits while FIN/ORG has to be the least inspiring combination out there. The latter can grow strong but does very little early on. This start definitely benefits from increased happy cap early on. Great food surplus and no end to great tiles.

First thought on Arabia was reroll, but thinking about it further I may keep. Looking at the number of civilizations available compared to players the chance of landing something like inca/zulu/etc in a reroll is minimal as only the trash civs are going to be let back in the pool. While I consider Arabia mediocre it does have some decent points here.

-starts with agriculture which makes mysticism bearable (and dodges fishing with inland start)
-cheaper library. Add in the CHM bonus and getting libraries is trivial. Pretty cool! Having the extra specialist slots is neat too. Makes it easier to get a timely 2nd GA without caste system and having a religion would surely be good as well for theocracy and a shrine.*
-knights are great and while the CA bonus is neglible it is at least something.

Overall Cyrus of Arabia would be off to a quick start and can take advantage of the generous starting location.

*While I'm extremely reluctant to be chasing religions early, I'd rather bulb theology or something, this might be one of the cases where the benefit would be considerable and the cost minor. Both food resources are agriculture (starting tech) and there are unforested grassland hills available. I'd need to run some tests to see just how much meditation or polytheism would set me back because delay of BW will always be critical. I should probably stick to my gut and stay the fuck away, but here it might merit further exploration.

I need to dwell on this some more, but posting because I may be getting a thread visitor soon to bounce ideas (depending on his schedule) and for lurkers as well I suppose.

Note to mapmakers: No final decision made yet. I'll make a pretty clear separate post later for when I've made up my mind. But let me know if everyone else has decided and you're waiting for me.

[Rusten]

As someone who has won almost as many PB games as he has entered I must say that the "unofficial tier list" in the main thread is amusing. But better to be underestimated than the other way around I suppose. I should hope that all the players are of the same opinion.

This game will be against much tougher opposition though, so first and foremost I just want to have a good time and enjoy PB again.
"Que sera, sera. Whatever will be, will be."

[Coeurva]

But better to be underestimated than the other way around I suppose.

Catastrophism- the empty city ruse. Archery first- ice cities- invulnerable to attack due to "profit margins"., "cost-benefit rations" and whatever else their commercial word programs suggest as synemes for their sublateral fear of their clueless battleplans- ignoring the homo homini lupus as clued in the game's title. Set all your warriors to fortify in the center of gravity- schwerpnukt- move them around in a perpetual fortress triangle, get haniball as your first general, change your nation's name to "regency council"- movement, chaos. Then research Music with no military and build sister cheval- with marble from "worthless" tundra- sneak attack and raze all other wonders- extorting cultural dominance over cottage builders who can only invest in science and boast how they only take 3t to calderar and will soon enable slave labor plantations and zzzz. (profit margin? i prefer water margin, thanks)

Fact- culture from barracks- know your surroundings. civ models the blindness of technical progressivism to which the progressives are technically blind.

the evidence is clear.

[Rusten]

Something about this start seemed eerily familiar and I've managed to track down the source of my suspicion. In particular the 2nd paragraph.

All this happened because of Mardocs decision to go with a mirrored map, and the decision to create a bad capital location (minimum forests, below minimum hills, high tech requirements). I didn't say any explicitly because why should I give up the advantage of my game, map design and metagame knowledge when it is likely going to just lead to me getting screwed over. But yes. I fucking hate mirror starts when we know they are mirrors. If we didn't know this was mirrored, then I wouldn't have played it this way.

And before anyone asks, the start should have had no seafood, no lakes, a longer river, couple more hills and forests and then either grass hill pig plus none river sheep at opposite ends of the fatcross, or wet wheat and wet rice adjacent to the capital tile on a plains hill start. Identical output, identical finish times for worker improvements, but without the players all fighting over the same civs in the snake pick, and no parties if you didn't get a civ that started with the required food tech. And if really in doubt just throw a metal happy in there, preferably on grassland...

Hmmmm......
Krill was the original mapmaker and while he's no longer in charge it's reasonable to assume that he's still involved in the process. I'm sure the new mapmakers are listening to his ideas and balancing as a veteran player even if he's not personally creating the map anymore.

Could it be mirror BFCs? I remember some talk in the main thread about not having mirrored starts, but now I don't know anymore. If yes, then it would lead me down the following path:

-All players have a similar start (assumption).
Consequence: You will either want to research agriculture first tech or start with it.

-Only 2 civs start with agriculture and mysticism (Arabia and Inca).
Consequence: If I am to stick with Arabia I am very likely to get my early religion as the only possible competition would be from the Inca.

-Having the shrine of an early dominating religion is a huge asset in a big game like this. Furthermore Arabia is "guaranteed" the prophet for a shrine within a reasonable time frame without making particular plays (securing a prophet wonder or running temple priest forever).
Consequence: Keeping Arabia is looking better and better.

But that's all assuming mirror starts.

[Rusten]

But better to be underestimated than the other way around I suppose.

Catastrophism- the empty city ruse. Archery first- ice cities- invulnerable to attack due to "profit margins"., "cost-benefit rations" and whatever else their commercial word programs suggest as synemes for their sublateral fear of their clueless battleplans- ignoring the homo homini lupus as clued in the game's title. Set all your warriors to fortify in the center of gravity- schwerpnukt- move them around in a perpetual fortress triangle, get haniball as your first general, change your nation's name to "regency council"- movement, chaos. Then research Music with no military and build sister cheval- with marble from "worthless" tundra- sneak attack and raze all other wonders- extorting cultural dominance over cottage builders who can only invest in science and boast how they only take 3t to calderar and will soon enable slave labor plantations and zzzz. (profit margin? i prefer water margin, thanks)

Fact- culture from barracks- know your surroundings. civ models the blindness of technical progressivism to which the progressives are technically blind.

the evidence is clear.

-fact



the evidence is clear

[Rusten]

I had some naming schemes prepared already, but now I'm feeling the urge to honour the legend himself, Attacko.
Thanks for the laugh

[Rusten]

Thinking about it some more I can't imagine there being mirror starts in such a big game. I would think most of the starts are made close to the krill quote though. Either way, first turns demographics will tell more and I don't necessarily need to pick my 1st tech on T1. Can still delay choosing the first few turns in this mod, right?

Neither CHM nor IMP have an easy time popping borders, but a 70 hammer library with a 35% production bonus that gives 4 culture instead of 2 solves that problem. It will be real easy to chop on settle or whip on size 2 for later cities and when up I need wait only 3 turns, not 10, for the border pop. I like this interaction. You could argue that a protective civ would save a similar amount of hammers as you usually want the granary first, but I don't have any of those available anyway. Furthermore the cheap granary is the main draw of PRO while the CHM library production is just one of many things about the trait (recent addition).

I wouldn't be unhappy if I had to go with Darius (FIN/ORG), but Cyrus feels more to the point. Should be as strong (or stronger) while also being more interesting to play. I'll feel flexible in terms of where to take the game.

[Rusten]

Mapmakers: I keep Cyrus of Arabia.

I release Darius back into the pool of leaders.