Suboptimal and Alhambram explore the unknown lands with Norwegian Longships

[Alhambram]

Let's start the journey!
   

[suboptimal]

I was able to play two games - one at Prince for about 30 turns to get familiar, one at Emperor to completion. Since I was taking it all in I made no attempt at micro, optimal play or any sort of detailed game planning other than "build and attack". My general gameplan went like this:

- Harbor -> Trader at Oslo to unlock the civics tree and get cash. Trader to Kopinsvink.
- Stavanger's trader to Kopinsvink for the cash (+9 gpt to start) Initial build was an archer for the eureka.
- The other city (can't remember the name) started with a trader. That trader also went to Kopinsvink.
- I prioritized non-faith targets over faith targets to get more cash from the pantheon belief before my cities converted.
- Once the pantheon was no longer active I ignored religion.
- I teched to unlock longships first, settlers second and bezerkers third.
- I bought the settler to get the eureka. It went to Ireland and settled on the eastern side of the river
- Other than building units for eurekas I built all longships and bezerkers.
- Bought a ram as soon as it was available.
- Didn't build a builder (captured a few from England) and given the lack of forests in Norway didn't engage in chops.
- Invaded Scotland from the sea with longships and bezerkers. Keep the ram at sea, attack amphibiously to avoid encampments.
- Took both northern cities, then swept south over land. In both games I got the first city in the early 20's.
- Three longships went around Spain, pillaging and sinking everything they could get to in France, Spain and the Mediterranean.

There was one interesting bit of AI behavior -- the city state across the Channel from Rouen decided to spend the entire game launching ranged attacks on Rouen, completely removing its walls over time.

[Alhambram]

Actually before TheArchduke did post about this scenario, I never played Vikings scenario. After TheArchduke's post at 21 november, I decided to give this scenario a try and completed all three civs for achievements.
Since then I have been playing full time Viking scenario, especially Denmark since it is most fun civ to play with. Norway is ok and Sweden boring.
At first few of games I also simply followed similair build and attack plan as you, also took all Great Admiral and got many points for Vinland, resulting in score of 8675 which is respectable score.

It is important to point out that testgames that we both played didn't involve a human players, so it is very unlikely that we end up with entire United Kingdom since TheArchduke's and Chevalier's Denmark isn't doing stupid things with Berserkers from start as AI is doing in our testgames.

After played all three civs, I should say that they do bear some similarities with Vanilla civs:
-Norway is similar as Vanilla Norway in civ 6, relying upon Longboats, raiding, naval dominance and settling far away places due earlier unlocking of oceanfaring tech, to win Norway is mainly relying upon early Great Admirals for Vinland points.
-Sweden is reminds me of Germany, a late economy boomer, depending upon settling as many cities as possible in empty eastern parts of map and growing their cities to max, in last 20 turns that economic power can be converted into military might against Byzantines.
-Denmark is counterpart of Rome, strong early military advantage, steamrolling over other civs, growing by conquering and finally civic boosts in beginning can be done fastest by Denmark, so likely be first to unlock Oligrachy for extra strength for Berserkers.

Indeed Rouen's walls get removed by city states, which makes it much easier for human player to capture Rouen, unfortunately Denmark has the best shot for Rouen since Denmark is positioned to conquer southern England fast.

I shall play some more sessions with Norway, with more micromanagement this time. Already did that one with Denmark past days and oh, Denmark can become a truly monster civ if left unchecked.
Therefore I think that our biggest opponents are TheArchduke and Chevalier, but we shouldn't forget Grotsnot and Banzailiard. The latter got a big strech empty land to expand without much worry except barbs.

[Alhambram]

And oh, who of us want be one in control of civ and other dedlurker, I don't mind either.

[suboptimal]

Yeah, not having humans as the Danes and Swedes makes planning more challenging. Based on Archduke's post in the tech thread southern England is definitely on their to-do list. I think this game will come down more to which team is more effective at preventing the other two from completing their objectives more than completing your own.

Perhaps instead of taking northern England do you think it'd be feasible to start with the southeastern city and move north from there, or try to take the entire east coast first? If battering rams weren't so slow to move over the ocean I'd say go for (Poitiers) and Spain. One idea would be to send a Settler to the western tip of France for the sole purpose of cranking out purchased rams and bezerkers while building walls. Maybe I'll try that tonight and see how that works out. It actually becomes easier if the Danes take Rouen as then the city would not be subject to as much of a land attack.

Given the pre-knowledge of the map and the scenario as a whole our best path to victory may be finding something that's a bit outside the box (or at least our opponent's expectations). I'll also need to take a closer look at all the victory point mechanics.

Regarding who's playing the turns I think we need to see how the time windows work out for who's controlling and who's lurking. If the save is passed via the tech thread instead of PYDT it might be possible to have both of us play turns in the early game.

[Alhambram]

Yeah, not having humans as the Danes and Swedes makes planning more challenging.  Based on Archduke's post in the tech thread southern England is definitely on their to-do list.  I think this game will come down more to which team is more effective at preventing the other two from completing their objectives more than completing your own.  

Perhaps instead of taking northern England do you think it'd be feasible to start with the southeastern city and move north from there, or try to take the entire east coast first?  If battering rams weren't so slow to move over the ocean I'd say go for (Poitiers) and Spain.  One idea would be to send a Settler to the western tip of France for the sole purpose of cranking out purchased rams and bezerkers while building walls.  Maybe I'll try that tonight and see how that works out.  It actually becomes easier if the Danes take Rouen as then the city would not be subject to as much of a land attack.

Given the pre-knowledge of the map and the scenario as a whole our best path to victory may be finding something that's a bit outside the box (or at least our opponent's expectations).  I'll also need to take a closer look at all the victory point mechanics.

Regarding who's playing the turns I think we need to see how the time windows work out for who's controlling and who's lurking.  If the save is passed via the tech thread instead of PYDT it might be possible to have both of us play turns in the early game.

I argee that this game might come down who can prevent other two from winning the best instead playing in own sandbox.
I already got some ideas and fears which I am currently using in my mircomanaging test games.

Take southeastern city first? Before our closest Berserker arrives at that city, Denmark normally should already have taken that city at turn 4. Though we might attempt to steal it with Longboats, Norwegian Longboats got 2 extra movement points, so we can maybe suprise Denmark with our Longships suddenly capturing their tagrets from fog.

Western tip of France isn't settleable, it falls under three range tile of southwestern English city. Going for Poiters and Spain is a option. Spain seem to be better option due its northern coast having two weak city states instead more powerful Al-Andalus empire.

Yeah, need to get good look at VP mechanics, not only conquering but also peaceful building empire can potentially gives many points if managed correctly.
Which mean that we shouldn't count out Sweden from beginning, they got best empire building potential of three civs.
But I still expect Denmark being more dangerous with TheArchduke the war expert steering Denmark civ. Also Norway and Denmark got roughly same targets from start, namely England while Sweden has free reign in east.

I post pics of my mentioned Denmark game that I did play several days ago. Played at Emperor diffculty same as soon to come mulitplayer and I expect Chevalier/TheArchduke at least match what I did with Denmark:

-Took whole United Kingdom at turn 20
-Conquered France at turn 40
-Submitted Italian Peninsula under Danish rule at turn 50
-About to start siege of both Cordoba and Constantinople at turn 60 when bell of ending game ringed.

   
   
   
   

15735 points, yeah it seem that we are having a uphill battle here. Though 2500 points can be subtraced if you leaves out first GA and handful cities that should be taken by Norway or Sweden.
Really need to think and play more testgames how to deal with such monster Denmark.

[suboptimal]

I'll need to look at this tonight in more depth - you're ahead of me in terms of the details. I haven't played the Danes or the Swedes nor checked out their starting complement, but based on the Danes taking Thetford on Turn 4, I take it they start with a battering ram?

[Alhambram]

Starts of three civs,

Norway (Longships and Great Admirals got +2 movement points):
   
Starts with:
3 Longships
3 Berserkers which one is nearby England
1 Archer
1 Trader
No boost for Feudalism (needs 6 farms and Norway just got one), got boost for Heaten Army (3 Longships) and can get boost for Stirrups at turn 1 by pillaging tile.
Never need to defend core, so don't invest in walls or extra units for defense ever.

Longships can pillage right from start but Berserkers need some turns moving from Norway to England. Norway got best shot at first GA.


Sweden (1 extra economic policy slot):
   
Starts with:
No Longships
3 Berserkers
1 Archer
2 Traders
1 Settler
1 Builder
Starts with Feudalism civic boosted and Shield Wall tech boosted (have a settler).
Western core is safe, altough settling cities at northern coast of Baltic sea and Finland are recommend to prevent barb camps spawning there. Eastern core need to be defended against barbs whole game.

Sweden should attempt to capture those two city states and then non stop spam settlers and expand in E and SE direction. Settling one tile SW of sheep tile gives another decent harbor city for eventual GA.
Need to build Longships first to support attack on those two city states and after that pillage monasteries elsewhere to get religious majority in lands to get Monotheism civic.
Failing to get Monotheism civic results in missing out over half of civics and Sweden basically becomes a crippled civ after that, never having to use stronger lategame policy cards that boosts economy greatly.
This is likely the reason why Grotsnot wanted to talk about blocking small strait betweeen Norway and Denmark, if both Norway and Denmark non stop blocks that waterway before Sweden sends it Longships out, Sweden is basically out race to win.


Denmark (1 extra Military policy slot):
   
Starts with:
1 Longship
5 Berserkers which three are ready to attack England at turn 1
1 Archer
1 Trader
Starts with Feudalism boost and Military Training civic boost (6 land units). Can get Military Tradition civic boost at turn 1 by killing Thetford's archer, can get boost for Stirrups as well.
Danish core got attacked from France and Wolin from start. Some defense needed here in form of walls and some archers, or more simple way to solve that problem: capture them both.

The combination of Military Tradition at turn 1 and already gotten Military Training means that Denmark is basically already halfway to Viking civic which unlocks Oligrachy for more policy slots and strength/exp boost for Berserkers.
Three Berserkers and one Longship is enough to capture Thetford at turn 4 already, note that Thetford got three farms which gives Danish Berserkers plently healing items for free to keep attacking the city.
From here steamroll England and then France and further. Denmark gets best chance of first GG.

[suboptimal]

I've done some more poking around (and am continuing to do so, so this post may get edited or followed by more)....first up, the victory points for discussion:



One error right off the bat: it's not "50 VP per Faith earned for pillaging a tile when less than half of your cities have the same religion ". It's actually 50 VP for pillaging a tile that yields faith. (actually, 60 – 50 for this bit and 10 for the usual pillaging score). The first case is bonkers (25 faith = 1250 VP) but the second case is not what's stated.

I took a look at the Danes' start and yeah, they're pretty much primed to take the city in four turns. However, in both tests where I took the city on Turn 4 I lost one beserker and the others were redlined. If Chevduke keep the longboat next to the city it won't be possible to poach the city. If we could maneuver two longboats into position (doable on Turn 2) a poach might be possible. However, I don't expect to be able to do that because they're not the AI. It becomes a question of how much of England will be leftover by the time our three beserkers are in position to take the northern cities.

Looking south, what if we took Utrecht? Beserkers get no penalty for amphibious assault, or if they do the GUI sure doesn’t show it. The longships could pillage down the English coast, with the northern one then turning around and heading back to Utrecht via Norway. The beserkers all head for the waters north of Utrecht, with longships meeting up with them and creating formations as they get within the two tile radius. I’ve observed that when paired up in this manner the city will target the longships and not the beserkers. The longships gain promotions to heal up while waiting for the stragglers to catch up. I was able to take the city on Turn 7 via amphibious assault, using the longships for cover until the walls came down and then attacked the city with them. The Danes could interfere using their longship or bringing their own remaining beserkers over, but it's an idea....

Follow-up to that could either be Rouen via the Channel (forcing Chevduke to either try to block the channel or divert from English conquest) or swing past Thetford up to Eoforwic while building walls in Utrecht. In the game I took Utrecht in 7 turns I was able to take Rouen about 6 turns or so later by promoting beserkers and sending two beserker/longship formations to the city. The archers across the channel had taken down the walls by that point and the city fell in two turns.

Of course, I could be talking out of my ass, but I don't know that Chevduke would be expecting it....

[suboptimal]

One more thing -- between my upcoming schedule for the next week or so and the fact that you've looked at this more extensively than I have it's probably a good idea for you to play the turns and for me to dedlurk as your trusty sidekick for this one.