5.61 Brainstorming

[Seravy]

It'll be a while until the next version at this rate but might as well start the thread.

-We need to remove Call Centaurs and add Boars instead. We already agreed on the approximate stats and role of the new summon, but we need someone willing to actually create the combat graphics for the unit. It doesn't have to be "Boars" specifically though, as long as it make sense for a nature summon with those parameters.
-I tested Night Stalkers and they seem to be good as is now. I don't think there is a need to take further action for those at least not immediately. Same is true for Shadow Demons and Wraiths which I used extensively in the last game.
-Should look at the rock graphics for the tile types that had them added, and replace them with better choices where they look odd.
-Swamps would be better if they displayed puddles/lakes instead of river parts but this is mostly up to Drake178 who provided the feature in the first place.
-No one replied to the bonus hp vs irrecoverable damage issue. We can leave it as is though, it's not an urgent decision.
-In my last game the Myrran wizard found 6 picks worth of books/retorts while others found 0-1 only. While we do want the Myrran wizard to be a last boss, this is a bit pushing it. Maybe we should alter the treasure generator to weight picks that can result in book picks to appear more on the Arcanus plane and less on Myrror. This could have a double effect : Normally it means the extra picks end up distributed between more wizards (Arcanus has 4 people although some human players might end up hogging all of it) but if the human plays Myrran it actually helps the Arcanus "last boss" to have more of them, and they are by definition weaker. This would make picking Myrran ultimately less powerful. Note that while the picks have the same chance regardless of location, Myrror does have higher budgets overall so while not significantly, it is more likely the picks end up there simply because it has more valid targets to choose from. (Or not, as it has fewer nodes total, not sure which effect is stronger)
Ultimately the extra picks were assigned with the assumption that they get found by multiple players, and the "other plane" having only one does mess with it. Of course I might be overthinking this, maybe having an AI with this many extra books every once in a while is a reasonable variety in difficulty.
-I'll need to continue testing trolls. Hadriex happens to play them right now as well, and I get the impression that maybe they have a little bit too much extra hit points? Especially the halberdiers. This is nowhere near a sure thing, more like a feeling. He does have poor garrisons though because the units are kinda expensive and troll economy isn't good so that might be enough to balance the good units.

I think that's all unless I missed something?

[Seravy]

Progress :
-Hadriex provided Boar sprites so the centaurs have been replaced.
-Fixed the rocks that appear on Myrran mountain tiles, not sure if there are others that look wrong.

So the next thing to look at is Myrran treasure. I think generic treasure like items or money is okay, it's only the book/retort treasure that should have a distribution that follows the wizards better. Rare or below spells are also okay as is.

I will implement the following idea for the pick based treasure generator unless there is a better suggestion :

Arcanus gets (D(AI Player count + 3)) books. Myrror gets D3 books. Towers have none. (Very rare spell counts as 1 books.)

This means, for a 4 AI game, Arcanus has 1-7 books. Myrror has 1-3.

[Nelphine]

That penalizes taking the myrran retort fairly heavily. It's fine for arcanus to have more, when the human player is there.


I'd much rather make it 2 minimum on the plane that the human player is on. Maximum on that plane is 50% higher than number of players. Min 1 on the other plane, maximum still 50% higher than number of players. maximum on both planes is always at least 3, regardless of number of players. Maximum also rounds up when there are an odd number of players.

[Seravy]

That penalizes taking the myrran retort fairly heavily. It's fine for arcanus to have more, when the human player is there.

That's the intention. We've already agreed Myrran is too good as is for the current cost mainly due to not having a powerful enough final enemy. So while we want to make sure the "Myrran Final Boss" becomes less likely to find extra books, making the "Arcanus Final Boss" find more instead of less is better.

We can narrow 1-7 down to 2-6 for Arcanus, although I prefer the 1-7. Having the risk of not finding any should be present to deter from ultra low book strategies. However I'm unwilling to make this "follow" the human player onto the Myrran plane. That's a direct nerf to the "Arcanus Final Boss" when it needs a buff instead.
I don't think a way to have your formula yield anything different from my proposed 1-3 on the other plane exists. That would require 3 players on Myrror without the human taking Myrran. That can't happen anymore.

[Nelphine]

Right I see what you're saying. However, you should still be able to get some books if you pick myrran. If we assume that the AI will get 1/number of players (round up), then more than half the time, when you choose myrran with your proposal, you get no books.


I'd like to make it 
Human is on arcanus:
If 1 player in aecanus, 1-3 books.
If 2 players on arcanus, 1-4 books
If 3 players on arcanus, 2-5 books
If 4 players on arcanus, 2-6 books
Myrror: 1-3 books



If human on myrror
If 1 player on myrror: 1-3 books
If 2 players on myrror: 1-4 books
If 3 players on myrror: 2-5 books
Arcanus: 
If 1 AI on arcanus: 1-3 books
If 2 AI on arcanus: 2-4 books


If an extra AI randomly shows up on the other plane unexpectedly from random chance (I know you can't have 3 anymore, but is there any variation?) then move 1 book from human plane to other plane after the rolls are done

[Seravy]

There is no room for that much detail left. (and your already pretty complex table doesn't even cover all cases)

Anyway, I want to make sure finding ANY books is not guaranteed at all. Especially on Myrror but also on Arcanus.

But here is the most important thing : playing Myrran is not the same as playing Arcanus. When you play Arcanus, you are expected to leave the towers alone, beat players on your own plane, then enter Myrror. So the Myrran wizard will get over half the Myrran picks available typically, while the Arcanus wizards gets over half the Arcanus picks. Opening towers early is not a recommended option by design - you can do that but more often than not it will backfire. So books mostly stay on the plane they were generated.
However if you play Myrran then opening towers earlier is a reasonable option. The Arcanus wizard has extra territory but weaker units. You actually have the choice of facing the Arcanus player early without that being an automatic suicide move. If you play like that, you have a fairly good chance of getting Arcanus books and unless you blocked all 9 towers early somehow, other Myrran AI players will also leak to Arcanus and get some. So all books will have a chance to end up with all players at a not-quite-equal-but-almost rate. In fact, to capitalize on your superior race, you USUALLY want to go to Arcanus early. The difficulty of playing Myrran will be mostly in the fact you're dealing with two planes and one more, fairly powerful enemy early in this case. Taking the easy way out by playing it the old fashioned "beat everyone on my plane then face the -weaker- final boss" way should, I think be discouraged. Making sure most books end up with that boss when played that way is a good solution.

Although honestly I don't remember at all if that was my intention for how Myrran games should play out or not. Chances are I had no plans for Myrran at all. But the "final boss" way definitely is too easy compared to not picking Myrran so having the player pick between these options instead of always going for the easier "final boss" strategy sounds like a good solution.

I understand this sounds counterintuitive to the "Myrran resources are superior" original design when you'd rush for the other plane early if you started on Arcanus and don't care if you started on Myrror, but considering the Myrran plane not only represents vast riches but also a superior military might (stronger races),  the opposite of the original makes way more logical sense - unless the Myrran plane starts empty as does on Normal difficulty.

[Nelphine]

Right but part of the points cost of choosing myrran is better treasure. That's in the discussions we had. More importantly, you still have to spend a point to get it, and as you yourself said, that greatly limits your spellbook options. Further, books are the least transparent type of treasure - this isn't going to be a change that anyone who doesn't know the game perfectly inside and out will understand - so they WON'T be encouraged to open the tower earlier. Instead they'll think that when they play on arcanus, they can reliably plan around getting a book or two most games - and so, it seems like choosing myrran (which costs you such a crucial book!) and planning on early treasure should actually be a workable strategy - you risk that the greater racial choice will allow earlier treasure, allowing you to make up your 'lost' book and still remain competitive, thus making the the weaker 'last boss' a real thing, so opening towers later makes sense.

What I've just described is GOOD game choice. It's something that people can learn, adjust to, and then work towards.

But your proposed change (which, recall, is not going to be intuitive) will actually turn what is otherwise a good teaching moment and strategy decision point, into a trap. Note, this is worse than simply removing the choice because you won't be able to show in game that the choice is gone, so people will potentially keep trying to play the strategy I described, and won't ever know why it doesn't work.

[Seravy]

Except, books are not "normal" treasure, it's a rare extra. You should be feeling lucky if you find even a single one. It's not part of a strategy. It's not something to count on. It's not something to base decisions on it. It's a subtle, unreliable thing that sometimes pushes games slightly in favor of the player finding them. Half the found books or retorts simply don't affect the outcome of the game - they contain spells you didn't actually need or were a retort not relevant to your strategy or game state (Artificer? Famous? Sage Master after very rares? Warlord when not using normal units at all? So many possibilities...). 
The Arcanus Final Boss will be still easier than the Myrran Final Boss, even if they find more books, and you don't. See that game I lost recently, if that wizard had, idk, Klackons or High Men instead of Dark Elves, no amount of extra books could have made me lose. But the overall balance will be pushed towards them being stronger than before and that's what matters.
If you picked enough books to have your winning strategy in the first place, you don't need to find books, and books the Arcanus wizard finds will not make you lose, it just raises difficulty to match what happens if you play on the normal plane. Contrary to those extra books on the Myrran last boss does make you lose.

On the other hand, "Myrran has more treasure" is still true. It has more gold, more mana, more items. So more of every kinds of treasure you can actually build around and rely on. We aren't changing budgets - so the cost of those books or retorts will stay on Myrror, but it'll show up in the form of an Excalibur or a larger pile of gold instead. (okay, books are somewhat underpriced so I'm not saying this isn't taking away any actual value, but nowhere near as much as you think.)

...how do I  explain this better?
Newbie players will see they have more treasure on Myrror, use it and win that way. Their Arcanus boss will have more books overall but a weaker race and slower snowballing, so perceived difficulty will be roughly the same as if playing without Myrran (or maybe still easier - most definitely not harder!). So game balance will be restored instead of "yeah Myrran is easier, let's do that again!". Newbie players are unlikely to play a low book game where not finding extra books matters. If they do, and fail due to that, they learn not picking enough books is a risk that's not obviously always better to take. (Which is the intended goal, really, I admit picking more retorts (or 1-2 offcolor books in multiple realms) is STILL more effective to an extent, but overdoing it should be punished. Taking extra risks is for the hardest difficulties you can't beat otherwise. Most importantly, we want to encourage newbie players to play late game strategies, that's the most fun part of the game. So punishing low book rainbow builds played without enough experience to succeed is perfect.)

Veterans might realize Arcanus has a higher average number of books - but not in a reliable way. It's still possible to roll 1 arcanus and 3 myrran books for example. So they'll realize the two strategies - early towers and late towers - are equal when playing on Myrror, and will be able to choose depending on their actual game state instead of being forced into one or the other. Which makes games more diverse and interesting. In the end, you should be picking your wars based on your strategy, realms, and enemies, not based on the vague promise of "Might be 2 more books on Arcanus". If the Myrran AI is a threat, fight them first. If not, go to Arcanus.
They'll also realize those "all retorts and 1-2 books per realm" wizards are for rushing and winning early, and thus will aim to open Arcanus ASAP anyway when playing them. Then they either beat the AI early, or find more books, or if they fail both, lose for starting with a risky strategy, but they won't fall into the trap of not finding more books because they stayed on Myrror.


Your misconception is you're assuming I say going to Arcanus early is the one better choice because Arcanus has more books. No. It's just an additional option people knowledgeable enough to be aware of extra picks in treasure will recognize. Which reduces the divergence in books counts as you will sometimes (say, 50%) pick that option. In the other cases you don't. And more books on Arcanus isn't even guaranteed. It's possible to roll 1-2 books for Arcanus but 3 for Myrror, even if not frequently.

(Also, why wouldn't a newbie recognize going to Arcanus early is good? I mean, Arcanus has the same territory and weaker enemies. Attacking the only person the Myrran retort does provide an advantage against, and the one who has the most territory to take away at the same time makes very much sense. I mean, treasure is nice and all but 4X games are won by controlling more territory than others. If we are worried about this, all we need to do is edit the description of the retort to put more emphasis on the "Myrran races have more powerful units" aspect if it's not obvious enough at the moment.)

[Nelphine]

No no.

I'm new. I play advanced. I find that myrran is difficult to play at start due to the 'lost' retort and not not understanding how it works.

I play until I win a bunch of games on on advanced.

During that time, I'm winning against AI that don't clear the top end lairs nodes and towers. Because of this I get much higher than my expected share of books in those winning games.

I now learn that if I can conquer the top end lairs towed nodes I get decent treasure.

I have no way to understand that's arbitrarily limited to arcanus treasure - the last boss myrran still cleared everything before I could explore the myrran treasure.

I recall playing on myrran did get more basic treasure despite the other problems.

I conclude, myrran is for treasure, high end treasure contains books, so rushing high end treasure on myrror must be a viable build and makes up for the early game problems.

The number of books IS subtle, so while it never works, I never realize my myrran 'strategy' is doomed to failure by game design for ai which is entirely behind the scenes.


Building for treasure rushing on both planes absolutely needs to be a strategy - or on neither plane. Or on myrror only. But not on arcanus only. 

And remember, it's perception that's the issue here, not balance. Books might be subtle.. but once you notice them, they massively outweigh other treasure for PERCEPTION.

[Seravy]

Decent treasure != books and retorts. It includes them but there is so much more than that. Ofc there are times when a book or retort wins you the game but for each there are twice as many when you win by finding a good early uncommon or rare, or an awesome artifact. An early high end regeneration item does a million times more for winning than an early book.


I admit, I don't see that many people playing on advanced but it usually seems to be one of these :

-I'm new. I play on advanced. The game kicks my ass again and again and now I set difficulty to fair and struggle to survive at least until the endgame at which point I win easily - the AI isn't that smart with very rares and they are really good when used by a human. It didn't matter what I was playing, if I'm still in the game this far, I won. With or without extra books, my very rare spells made sure of that.
-I'm new. Not that new as the above guy though. I play on advanced. I'm good enough to stay in the game and reach the late game. The AI still hasn't conquered the "good lairs" yet, but they are rapidly becoming a threat. I go on a lair hunting spree, spanning 3-5 years of game time - doing that has always meant my victory in the vanilla MoM. I find books, items, all sorts of amazing things...but the BGM changed. It's more eerie, more...discouraging. What's up with that, shit, where did that Time Stop come from. Hey don't cast Armageddon now when I have no turns to dispel it. Okay this is bad, but I have all the amazing treasure. Ofc I have no time to research the spells, even less summon a stack of those monsters, and I kinda need to survive these Sky Drakes incoming but I do have an unstoppable stack that's all max level and has the best artifacts from all that hunting so I can go and banish that wizard so I don't lose the game. Oh crap, how could my invincible team lose the fortress battle?
-I'm new. I pick myrran because if I don't, the Myrran AI kicks my ass. If I do, the Arcanus guy is beatable 75% of the time. He doesn't even clear his lairs and nodes unlike the other guy because Arcanus units are that lame so I get more treasure - I can get the rich myrran treasure AND whatever is on Arcanus both, while otherwise I'd only get one plane, Arcanus.

I think these are the 3 most likely ways a player will react. Now I admit this change is trying to get rid of the third one, but I don't think it will. It just changes the "75%" in the above sentence with a somewhat lower number.

But okay, I understand what you're trying to say. Except, rushing treasure doesn't require playing low books. I mean, unless you play rainbow Omniscient or something similar obscure, you can rush treasure by picking 8-10 books in a single realm or 5+5 in two, throwing in Astrologer, maybe Charismatic so the AI leaves you alone and don't murder you while you're busy hunting treasure and assuming you did select the 8 books, you still have 2 more picks for whatever accelerates treasure hunting with your strategy best, from Warlord to Channeller.
And if you do that, winning or losing doesn't depend on finding the books. And yes, "perceived treasure" has a point but ultimately if the player wins, especially if by a large margin, they won't consider the strategy overall bad even if they haven't found any. Eventually they'll even realize books aren't what wins game. What winning or losing actually depends on as a treasure hunting strategy is how well your secondary plan for dealing with AI aggression while hunting for the treasure works, and your luck with the map - the types of monsters and lairs you can clear, the types of AI wizards who do or don't attack you and so on.
I don't think playing a treasure hunting strategy on Myrror is bad in general. It's ONLY bad is you do it with a low book wizard build. But a low book wizard build has so much front load, if you dedicating all that on treasure alone, you're not playing it correctly. Those are builds meant to eliminate all AI opponents early. I mean, Sapher early. Seriously, if you front load for a powerful early game, why would you want books from treasure? They only ever matter if your primary plan to win early already failed.
...Actually, why would you even want the books? I mean, sure they add researchable very rares but you don't have the capacity to research them, we aren't that far ahead in the game and you are playing a research thin strategy in the first place. The commons, uncommons, maybe rares, yes, but you can find those are plane independent. You don't need a book for them.
So only found retorts will be relevant which are a 25% chance, or found offcolor books that grant you key commons - but you're low on books exactly because you picked 1-2 in at least 3-4 different realms so you have those already.

In the end, to actually run "low books" meaning less than 4-5 very rares available overall, ever since the 4 retorts limit you have to do something really unusual. Either pick 3-4 double cost retorts, or pick books from 4 or more realms. And to have less than 3 very rares you actually can't have more than 3 books in any realm which means you have to spend 9 picks on your 4 retorts and other realm books. I'm not saying you can't do that but I can't see a newbie player doing that, really. At least not in a serious way expecting it to be a good strategy. I mean there is that saying "jack of all trades, master of none". Yes, we veterans are aware that this is way more effective than it looks like. But a newbie? I don't think so...

And let's not forget treasure hunting is the hardest to play strategy in the mod. Not only do you need to be great at knowing all the monsters and their strength and weaknesses, but also need to be a master of diplomacy because unwanted wars get in the way of that treasure hunting. A lot. Sure, attacking a lair is easy but having troops to spare to do that when the enemy thinks otherwise is way harder than throwing that army at said enemy and conquering their cities. I dare say the whole treasure mechanic is a trap although not necessarily by design. It diverts the player's attention from the enemies they NEED to fight, before it's too late, and makes them waste time on gambling for a good item or hero or book. (and let's not even mention the low blows like hidden Air Elementals or a monster stalling 25 turns so you are forced to retreat and a nearby AI gets your treasure next turn.)
Or maybe it's just Hadriex but I've seen him lose so many games to spending too much time on treasure hunting or losing important armies to nodes and lairs I don't think treasure hunting is something a newbie should be focusing on as their primary strategy to win.

For example I am in my current game, "rushing treasure". I picked 5 Nature, 5 Sorcery, Myrran and Conjurer. For spells, Earth Lore and Sprites, for race, Trolls, for uncommon, Transmute. Both sprites and adamantium trolls take out a lot of treasure very quickly. But I expect to win even if I find zero books. I'm not doing it for books. I'm doing it to have gold to buy legions of war trolls quickly to beat other players with, or to find bunch of artifacts so I only need to create one item per champion to have a full regenerating, unstoppable team. An early rare spell could win the game too, like Iron Skin. Books? Yes, I'll be happy very if I find any but they are secondary to all the above. Books don't win games, they only open up strategies otherwise unavailable. If you already had the winning strategy planned, they are just extras.