[Spoiler] Suboptimal's Next Attempt at Lurker Frustration

[suboptimal]

The Pregame Show

And so it begins again. This time we’re exploring the civs not chosen, the paths not taken, etc. etc. etc. In PBEM 10 and at least once since then I “threatened” to play Catherine of France as a way to “clean sheet” the start of the game since that civ/leader combo has nothing special kick in until the Medieval (except for Catherine’s visibility bonus). As a result I find this setup mildy ironic in an amusing sort of way – Catherine wasn’t deemed bad enough to make the draft list, so here’s a game in which playing that combo would be appropriate and she’s not available.

Right, so, initial thoughts…

Opponents

Archduke, Ichabod, Woden, myself and Ioan76. This game will be largely dictated, I think, by the start positions of Archduke and Ioan76 and what they choose to do. Archduke because he’s frequently one for early aggression and Ioan76 because he is, in theory, greener than I am. He has Chevalier running herd riding shotgun so that should keep him competitive early on. Ichabod is a bit of a wild card, I think this is his first PBEM since PBEM 3 when he ran over myself and Kaiser who were….as green as Ioan76 appears to be right now. Woden has played in a few and seems to tilt towards being a builder, though he ran right over Jester and eliminated him on Turn 84 of PBEM 15.

This will be an interesting one, to say the least.

The Map

We’re on a pangea unless the mapmaker gives us a fractal map that is pangea-like. We’re also likely on a small map so even with 5 civs and 10 city-states there will be room to expand and enough distance between civs where early wars are unlikely. The other settings are undecided but I’ve noticed that Gathering Storm’s scripts love mountain ranges and breaking up the land mass.  The map size will permit four of the five civs to obtain a religion if they so desire.

The Civs

Here’s the list:

Norway
Phoenicia
Eleanore (France or England)
Sweden
Kongo
Spain
Georgia
Canada
Brazil
Egypt

Brazil, Egypt, Kongo and Norway have appeared in previous PBEMs. Of all of these I’ve played one SP game as Kongo and have spent the last week or so messing around with Brazil. I’ve been doing that since I was the only player that didn’t put them in their bottom 12 and I wanted to try to figure out if I was missing something and...I’m not seeing what the others are seeing. Hopefully I get them in my pick list so I can find out. I will say that I consider Brazil to be best in class of the ten civs on this list. As for worst in class, I think Eleanor of France and Georgia are neck and neck for that spot - France's abilities are weak and late, Eleanor's loyalty bonuses for great works gets no real help in getting great works and Georgia appears to rely on getting a religion with no help from the civ abilities and then suzeraining city-states, if there are any left on the map.

I’ve got some ideas how I’d play a few of these civs, but for others I’d need to take a much deeper look at them. I’ll wait for the pick list to show up before I start fleshing out any ideas.

[Alhambram]

Mind having me as your dedlurker? You were a big support in Viking scenario PBEM and it was fun despite not winning it.

[suboptimal]

Mind having me as your dedlurker? You were a big support in Viking scenario PBEM and it was fun despite not winning it.

Absolutely!  Welcome aboard!

Hypothetical question for you - how possible do you think it would be to achieve (or at least threaten to achieve) a cultural victory in an MP situation?

[Alhambram]

Mind having me as your dedlurker? You were a big support in Viking scenario PBEM and it was fun despite not winning it.

Absolutely!  Welcome aboard!

Hypothetical question for you - how possible do you think it would be to achieve (or at least threaten to achieve) a cultural victory in an MP situation?

I think it is a very low chance to achieve it. You really need to amass a lot culture and tourism. The key civics are at Industrial age and later which average player mostly arrive around turn 150 and at atomic age some powerful policies related tourism are unlocked.
There are various ways to win cultural victory, by great works (need a lot theater districts), rock bands (need a lot faith), national parks (need appeals) or seaside resorts (also need appeals).
Tourism from wonders don't win you a cultural victory (except France maybe) but they have useful powers to help achieve cultural victoy for example Eiffel Tower to increase appeal empirewide).
The date of cultural victory is mostly between turn 225-250 (or 200 if very early but that also means that other players would have screw up their culture generation badly which is unlikely to happen).
By that point PBEM is mostly over already due concession or in period of hot end game war.
That is also why science victory is unlikely in MP unless there happens to be two evenly matched top players till very end.

You can attempt to threaten a culture victory by building all wonders, grabbing every great works and eventually improving seaside resorts way earlier than others. But threat of cultural victory is mostly starting to be serious around turn 200.
Also human players eventually notice amassed tourists and react by raising own culture or own tourism, alternative by always war (war do penalize tourism from country that you are in war with certain precentage).

In short you can attempt it but I don't recommend it unless 2 or more players including you are locked in stalemate after turn 175 which opens up possibilty to win by other ways then domination or concession.

[suboptimal]

Your opinion on the cultural victory just about matches with mine. However, I do have to wonder if this game might actually wind up in a stalemate situation unless there's a 2v1 or Ioan76 gets eaten alive early, which is why I was asking about it. I look at PBEM 15 as an example - how does that game turn out if Jester doesn't get taken out by Woden? Pindicator and I, mainly due to geography, were stalemated for a good portion of the game. Granted, a good part of that might also have been our poor expansion rates and otherwise...suboptimal......play but I think the example holds.

[Quagma Blast]

Your random civilizations are:

PHOENICIA
or
ELEANOR (of France or England)

Post in this thread, or send me a PM, confirming which of these civs you would like to play; or declare that you will reroll and get a different set of two from which you must pick.

[suboptimal]

Phoenicia or Eleanor. Heh.....we get to pick from three civs, two of which have unique harbors and one of which has....not much at all until the Rennaissance. Hmmmm....

Phoenicia - unique Harbor district, get a free trade route after building the Government Plaza and any of its buildings, +50% to districts in the city with the GP and the eureka for Writing. The Cothon acts like a Harbor but gives +50% to settlers and +100hp healing to all naval units in the city's borders.

Eleanor - great works cause cities within 9 tiles to lose 1 loyalty per turn. Cities that flip go straight to Eleanor. One way this could matter (the only way?) would be by building a tightly packed empire with theater districts everywhere.

England - Mined Iron and Coal are +2 extra per turn. +100% to military engineers, buildings that need power provide an additional +4 yield when powered, +20% to IZ buildings and harbor buildings increase resource stockpiles. Royal Navy Dockyard is a half-cost Harbor (good), +1 movement to all ships built there (meh on Pangea), +2 if built on foreign continent, +2 Admiral points per turn. Sea Dog is a privateer than can capture other ships.

France - +20% production to wonders from the Medieval to the Industrial Age, double tourism to all wonders. Chateau are +2 +1 appeal, +1 if next to a wonder (doubling at Flight) and +1 for each adjacent luxury resource but must be built on a river and unlocked at Humanism. Garde Imperiale is like a hetairoi but in the Industrial Era and skips Infantry in the upgrade path (and can't be upgraded to).

So....I could see making a run at a coastal, based economic powerhouse with either Phoenicia or England, but to what end? I suppose with England the idea would be Campus, Commerce and production, get the IZ's up and running and then try to outproduce and run over someone.

With France the idea would be for a cultural victory, but that begs the question of how? Of course, I have no issues chasing an improbable vicotory condition and wonder building, but is that doable? I suppose Chateau spam just before researching Flight could be a big tourism boost, but would it be big enough? Alternatively it would be to work on high production cities, crank out a bunch of Garde Imperiale and run over someone.

Alhambram, any thoughts on these? I'm open to "unusual" strategies or ideas here and am likely missing a trick with these...if there is one. Of course, reroll is always an option. I'm going to try some SP with these tonight.

Quagma, I'll attept to get back to you with a decision tomorrow (Monday) evening (EDT) while I look at these and see what Alhambram thinks.

[Alhambram]

I did play with Phoenica in duel against TheArchduke, aside things that you did list, Phoenica's settlers also gain extra movement and visiblity when embarked, they can act psuedo scouts while chained with Phoenica's UU Bireme.
Also when founding cities at coastal tiles (therefore NO lakes) of same continent as capital, those cities never drops loyalty and therefore you can settle your coastal cities upon same contintent as capital 4 tiles away from enemy's capital without fear of being flipped.
Be sure to send military units along to defend, after all you are forward settling your city in face of your opponent!  
In case that enemy capital is located at other contintent, you can run project at city with cothon to relocate your capital to this city wth cothon and applying protection for other founded cities against enemy loyalty flipping.
Finally Cothon don't only gives +50 to settlers but also to ALL naval units, this makes Phoenica one of best naval civ.

But biggest problem that I see with Phoenica is that they are very dependent upon coasts and this is Pangea map which means more landlocked cities instead cities at coast.
If this PBEM went with continents map or even more water based map, I would taken Phoenica without second thought.


Eleanor is very gimmicky leader, relying upon peaceful flipping. You can attempt in SP without worries because AI don't respond. Maybe idea to organize other Passive-Argessive Hatty solo game at Realms Beyond?
At multiplayer however a war declaration is most likely how others would respond at our attempt of flipping.
You suggestion of tightly packed empire with theater districts is just a start, you can also use governors or spies to manipulate loyalty.
Also high pop city helps (therefore many food and amenties) and get golden ages often for extra loyalty pressure.
Problem of Eleanor is that her strength kicks in after Renaissance civic Humanism. Before that you are playing a blank leader not contributing a much thing for your empire.


England got serious buff in G+S, especially +4 (or +8 with building yield doubling policy card) for powerable buldings makes England a lategame monster.
Also cheaper military engineer means faster dams and canals for quick better adjaceny bonus for Industrial zones and quicker set up of railroad network.
But problem is that Eleanor has not good synergy with England, only +4 loyalty by Navy Dockyards upon continents outside your capital helps speeden up flip a bit.
Victoria at other hands is amazing, extra UU in form of Redcoats, 1st founded city at other continent get free melee unit and extra trade route.
But really nutty is one FREE navy unit for EVERY NEW Navy Dockyard, no need to spend production for new navy, just build a navy dockyard and new strongest naval unit that you can build appears magically.
This makes Eleanor pale in comparison with Victora. Actually if England kept orginal British Museum (6 slots in artifract museum and automatically themed) from vanilla version, Eleanor would be very good leader.


France at other hand got better synergy with Eleanor due France having other powers gearing toward cultural victory fro start.
But France actually shares same problem as with Eleanor herself: the civilization start kick around at Renaissance age, though you can already build expensive ancient and classical wonders.
Basically if you pick Eleanor of France, you are playing a complete blank ciivlization without something special till Renaissance era, not encouraging in face of potential other players who got civs with early bonuses.
Catherine do compensate that a little with visibilty bonus which translate into +3 strength over other players units and earlier spies.



In short since this is pangea map, I would not pick Phoenica and England but I might kick myself if starting spot happen be close coastal or lake where we can (ab)use Phoenica's cothon to spam settlers and settle more cities than anyone and run away with more districts due having more cities.
England got very powerful lategame bonuses but in MP modern age is rarely reached due concessions around or before industrial age. At naval map England is far more superior.
If you want aim for cultural victory (not impossible but very low chance), I would pick Eleanor of France. Reroll might help or not: Canada and Sweden both are better at culture victory but also very late game or even more later than Eleanor.
Egypt and Kongo got somewhat weaker culture bonuses but they arrive much earlier so you can use them from start, I rate them more useful than Eleanor in MP game.
Brazil is also good for culture victory but I argee with you that Brazil is one of better civs here and I except that player who rolled it pick it right away.
Norway for some pillaging spree and Spain for religious warfare. Hoping that we won't reroll Georgia, it is probably worst civ of civ 6 or I might be mistaken.

I am kinda sitting at fence here, I don't mind what you pick. Phoenica for settler spam or Eleanor of France for culture attempt (England+Eleanor is not recommend by me), or take a gamble and reroll for unknown civs which might turn out better or worse.

[suboptimal]

In all three civ/leader choices we've been given I think the fact of the matter is that we're going to wind up ignoring or not "properly" using one or more of the civ's/leader's abilities. I did a little bit of SP messing around last night and am actually leaning in the direction you're not - Eleanor of England.

Phoenicia: While the settler production bonus can be big, the issue I see is that it's a Pangea. We could stake our claim, park a third or fourth city on the coast (in addition to the capital) and then spam settlers. However, outside of the settler production bonus and cheap Harbors, that's all that Phoenicia has got going for it. There is a high likelihood of a coastal start since they do have a strong coastal start bias (Tier 2 IIRC).

Eleanor: The loyalty bonus is not really usable in an MP game, at least on offense. Having a tightly packed civ with Eleanor, Theater Squares and great works does make such a civ a but of a harder nut to crack, though, as the loyalty penalties make it harder for an opponent to keep any conquests.

France: As you say, it's a blank civ until the Rennaissance.

England: It's a late-game monster, especially with the powered buildings and the military engineers cranking out Dams and and Aqueducts. But what of the early game? Well, don't forget that an iron mine or a coal mine will accumulate 4 per turn of the resource instead of two per turn. This means that when iron and coal get revealed we will have an advantage in resource accumulationwhich translates into a faster production rate of resource requiring units. I think that with England we can try to go land-based military early, carve out a reasonable section of shoreline as the "back lines" and then backfill with coastal cities. I'll flesh this out in a few hours (during my lunch break).

[suboptimal]

OK...so my tentative game plan with Eleanor/England. The long term goal would be a cultural victory, mainly because I think it would be a fun attempt and because I could use a bit of buildering. I think England is better suited for a cultural run than France because:

- Workshop of the World would provide more total production than France’s bonus when it comes to wonders.
- The production from WotW is more generally applied to non-wonder builds as well.
- Building out IZ’s is cheaper, IZ’s + buildings can get more Great Engineers which can help build wonders.
- England would be able to establish its commerce faster with RNDs instead of Commercial Hubs
- The increased accumulation rate of iron provides a bit more flexibility for a knight push into city-states or a neighbor if so desired, as well as making it easier to put together a reasonably powerful defensive force.

My thinking is to establish one coastal and two inland cities early, with the coastal city preferably being the capital. Campus districts + 1 RND early, put the Government Plaza and Magnus in a high production, non-capital city to pump settlers for mid-game expansion. Theater Squares would eventually go into all cities with an eye towards placing them in the second ring so that they can share wonders between cities/districts. In a perfect world the high-production city with the Govt Plaza would get Magnus for settler pumping, build an IZ and once expansion was over Pingala would get placed with the +100% GP generation promotion to work on grabbing engineers for wonder building.

For governors I'd be looking at Pingala with culture, GPP and eventually tourist promotions and Magnus with the settler promotion. If we got a high-adjacency RND (+4 or better) I'd consider getting Reyna with Harbormaster in there, especially once a Shipyards become available. Liang with Aquaculture might also work for a coastal city.

Yes, this largely ignores Eleanor's bonuses except as a defensive measure to help flip any captured cities back into the fold.

My expectation is that this game will wind up being a long one and that we'll be seeing the Industrial or later ages.