Get Rich or Die Tryin': HidingKneel and Mardoc tackle the Khazad (Spoilers!)

[Qgqqqqq]

Why were you so scared the Calabim even after our first war? Even completely ignoring the whole ToM thing, TBS was pumping out end game techs while we were barely through feudalism. I'm not sure how we were more scary, even if TBS did decide to go the conquest route.
I agree about diplomacy. Its ironic really, given we decided we wouldn't sign Naps, to lose because of it.

[HidingKneel]

Why were you so scared the Calabim even after our first war? Even completely ignoring the whole ToM thing, TBS was pumping out end game techs while we were barely through feudalism.

Raiders, Vampires, Governor's Mansions? You were plenty scary. And the fact that you had plenty of tech left to go meant you were going to get stronger with time, whereas either of us would be able to overpower the Kuriotates with enough time to grow.

[The Black Sword]

I don't know, I tend to agree with Q, I was rather terrified of getting dogpiled by the two of you, because my demos looked so dominant. I don't think you can just write off my GNP advantage, the 2g -> 1h conversion rate is easily done, and would give me a really big hammer advantage. Skimming through the threads(I got no work done yesterday!) it seemed you guys were surprised that I'd offer the NAP to you before attacking jalapeno when you had no military to speak of, but there was no way I was going to war with one of you when the other was unoccupied. That really was the foremost reason for the NAP, though I did have the idea of a victory condition run in the back of my mind.

I think the 'time to grow' is a bit of a trap. Once I've maximised my own growth I can't let my resources sit there doing nothing. They'll be put into something, whether a victory condition, a military that you have to match, or something else that I consider worth the pay-off.

One other conclusion that I've come to from this game is that I think I might prefer to avoid diplo in the future. This game was a lot of fun but would have been more so without the diplomacy. It wasn't just the endgame (though that was quite an anticlimax): it really changed the parameters throughout. There's no way we could have run such a massive farmer's gambit for 90 turns without diplomatic agreements, and I think it would have been a more interesting game if we were trying to balance expansion with defense (certainly I would have researched Animal Handling much earlier).

I think I agree with this as well, would have made for a more interesting early game and end game IMO.

[HidingKneel]

I don't know, I tend to agree with Q...

In retrospect I can certainly agree as well... I didn't worry enough about peaceful victory conditions.
The thinking was more "Would I rather square off against the Kuriotates once the Calabim are out of the picture, or square off with the Calabim once the Kuriotates are out of the picture?" and in a war I think I'd still favor the former. Your GNP could buy you lots of mercenaries, but non-Hippus mercenaries have only a fraction of the mobility of Raider vampires (with high-strength disposable summons!).

[Azoth]

Thanks, HK and Mardoc, for a great thread. It's been a lot of fun to follow.

In terms of post game thoughts, I wonder if your biggest mistake wasn't... overexpansion?
In BtS, it is right and proper to expand as far as possible, right up to the borders of other players, because the tech tree is deep. You need at least Nationalism and Gunpowder for a military victory on any reasonably sized map, and more for peaceful victories, so cities are always a good investment. In FFH, after the early worker and civic techs, you have a choice of religions, some key economic techs (Sanitation, Trade, Currency), and then various military specializations. You really don't need all that much for victory. Cramped as this map was, all the lush land seems to have trapped people in expansion mode. It's not just about you picking the Khazad, though the vault mechanics were another reason to stay small(er). It's that, from a distance, I could see your military plans change slowly from Trebuchets/Bronze Axemen/Stonewardens to Druids/Iron Chariots/Paramanders. You kept putting it off, and ran out of time. Lots of other players had strong midgame units, too: Monks, Moroi, Centaur Archers, Tier 2 Adventurers. So I wonder if the optimal FFH meta would have you switch to a war-footing sooner, abandoning Agrarianism/Free Trade for Conquest, and making up that last bit of economy from pillage gold.

[HidingKneel]

Thanks, HK and Mardoc, for a great thread. It's been a lot of fun to follow.

In terms of post game thoughts, I wonder if your biggest mistake wasn't... overexpansion?
In BtS, it is right and proper to expand as far as possible, right up to the borders of other players, because the tech tree is deep. You need at least Nationalism and Gunpowder for a military victory on any reasonably sized map, and more for peaceful victories, so cities are always a good investment. In FFH, after the early worker and civic techs, you have a choice of religions, some key economic techs (Sanitation, Trade, Currency), and then various military specializations. You really don't need all that much for victory. Cramped as this map was, all the lush land seems to have trapped people in expansion mode. It's not just about you picking the Khazad, though the vault mechanics were another reason to stay small(er). It's that, from a distance, I could see your military plans change slowly from Trebuchets/Bronze Axemen/Stonewardens to Druids/Iron Chariots/Paramanders. You kept putting it off, and ran out of time. Lots of other players had strong midgame units, too: Monks, Moroi, Centaur Archers, Tier 2 Adventurers. So I wonder if the optimal FFH meta would have you switch to a war-footing sooner, abandoning Agrarianism/Free Trade for Conquest, and making up that last bit of economy from pillage gold.

Glad you enjoyed it, Azoth!

But I'm not sure I agree with you. It's true that our last few cities never quite got to the point of being military contributors, but they were nearly there. Chariots were the military goal from the beginning, and Druids are enough of a gamechanger that they were worth the cost. I think the problem wasn't that we didn't build our army soon enough, it's that we were locked into an NAP which prevented us from using the military correctly once we had it. I don't think there's any point before Druids where we could have fought the Kuriotates with any hope of victory. The Calabim were at parity with us, more mobile, and far away. The Ljosalfar had their worldspell, and we didn't have a border with the Elohim. The only reasonable target for early aggression would have been the Grigori. And my guess (based on TBS's reaction to the Calabim-Elohim war) that an invasion of the Grigori would have been the cue for centaurs to raid Duckburg...