League of Legends General Discussion Thread

[Roland]

She'd do more damage sure, but the entire point of the warmog's route is to give up some of that damage while gaining a few thousand health. Two warmogs and and an atma's is quite a bit of AD too. I can't attest to its efficacy in high-level games, and I imagine it can be countered fairly easy, but it can be fun in solo queue.

Sivir's strengths are dealing decent damage rapidly across a multitude of targets, and providing a strong boost to other physical champions. She's great at solo-backdooring once she's fed, but barring severe armor / magic resistance bonuses from her items I don't see how it'll be very viable. Sure, she can stand there all day slinging her Ricochet shots, but they'll do poor damage, and she'll still drop to concentrated CC + damage - it'll just take longer. If Sivir isn't doing solid DPS, she's not doing her job.

Just my humble opinion on the matter. She may pub-stomp solo que, but she has almost no competitive qualities. When you start facing 4- and 5-man teams of players in their 25s-30s, you'll see that. I don't waste my time on her.

Also I've been having great luck with Shen using Speaker's guide as a baseline, though I need more practice, particularly with recognizing good ult timings. What do you think about getting a Heart of Gold early, at least if you plan to build Randuin's? Like getting level 1 or 2 boots and a HoG on your first back.

I don't claim to be any expert on Shen, but I do have about 100 games of experience with him (basically been maining him since he went on sale). Randuin's is an expensive, late-game item that brings very little to the table that can't be gotten elsewhere, sooner, cheaper, and better. Don't get me wrong, it's a terrific item, and one I shoot for - as a 5th or 6th pick. The health bonus is marginal - Aegis is almost as good, and offers FAR better team support. The cooldown reduction is solid, but it's available from Spirit Visage, which also grants 2/3 the health of Randuin's, at least than half the cost, and Shen doesn't need much cooldown reduction (if any). The active is OK - if you're facing lots of physical DPS champs. Against a balanced team, it will slow down (no pun intended) their ranged AD carry for a few seconds - and do nothing for anyone else, really.

As for Heart of Gold specifically, I never buy it. NEVER. If I'm close enough to buy it, I skip it and wait for the other piece. +27 Armor and a sliver of extra gold? Some health, to boot? I'd rather have over twice the armor from the other half, for the cost of HoG. HoG is almost as much as Spirit Visage, which does far more for the money.

My typical build differs from Speaker. I go back at 1400+ gold and buy Mercury Treads, and usually as many wards as I can. Then I try to shoot for a Giant's Belt, then a Chainmail, and finally a Sunfire Cape. After I have that (DPS for creep farming, health, and solid armor) I build up all the component pieces for Aegis, and finally build that. Next comes Spirit Visage usually, and after that it's on to the final few - Randuin's and something else I can't remember. Randuin's is usually dead last on my list. I've tried going Speaker's route, and I find it takes too long to build that initial Aegis after getting Tier 2 Boots for getting that Sunfire when I feel it matters most. If I went Tier 1 > Aegis, I could see it working better, but I generally want Merc Treads ASAP, followed by the benefits of Sunfire. I've not found the AoE benefits of Aegis to be of significant help in the early game to be worth taking over Sunfire (which, IMO, gives me more direct survivability and allows me to farm creeps even easier - essential when responding to side-lane pushes). Again, though, this is just MY experience - Speaker has far more, and I can certainly agree an early Aegis can make a difference. Perhaps I'm being selfish, but I've felt more comfortable with Sunfire then Aegis instead of the other way around. To each their own.

Of course, if the other team is stomping us early, I'll make it a priority to get Aegis early, but it's usually pretty rare that happens. Spirit Visage I lived without for so long that honestly I wouldn't miss it if it's not there. I will say, however, that it's very solid bang for your buck. If you can fit it in on a trip back, complete, it's worth it. The extra health and magic resist alone make it worthwhile in the mid-game, where it should be a quick & easy acquire, while the cooldown helps just a tad with your Ultimate.

Personally, I have no trouble farming with Shen that I need the extra gold from Heart of Gold, and the extra health can be better gotten through other items (Spirit Visage or Giant's Belt, IMHO). Also, extra armor usually trumps extra health, at least in the early to mid game, at least insofar as my understanding is of how my Champion responds to enemies throughout my build order. I've been tempted to try a Warmog's on Shen, just for the sheer health boost (hey, it works on Mord, right? Among others...), and the extra damage from Ki Strike wouldn't hurt, but I just haven't bothered to try it yet. Maybe next time I will, in place of my 5th or 6th item. Of course, by then we're usually either winning handily, or just swinging around from losing to winning, so it's pretty much a moot point. I can only think of about 2 games where I got 6 items and had more money left over than I knew what to do with. Not that it mattered - were winning, and it didn't last long. :P

Just my 2 cents.

[Cull]

If you're the type to go lolwut to getting Madred's on Jungle Shen, despite it making me jungle way faster, and solo dragon at lvl 6 or so no problem, building two HoGs quickly, usually on your first or second time back, it provides pretty strong stats. Amumu, and Olaf are two other champions in which this is just suburb on IMO. Randuim's is an AoE slow+AS debuff. It provides little in the way of armor or health, but combined with taunt, it provides decent ultily. If you're going for HoG instead of Razors jungling, going Randuin's 3rd or 4th item isn't bad TBH. Unless Shen is your main tank(in which case your team comp is probably lacking, at least right now), there's no reason why such an item shouldn't be considered.

I've played around 80 games with Shen I think, so my advice should be taken with a huge pillar of salt.

[Krill]

Anyone here have a clue how to play Shaco?

[Sandover]

I'm personally not a fan of an early Randuin's either, though I've seen lots of tanks use it to great benefit. For solo queue an early Sunfire Cape will outperform anything else almost every game as far as I'm concerned, with the obvious exception being against teams stacking AP. Ranked is probably an entirely different matter.

Anyone here have a clue how to play Shaco?

Head into the jungle or don't bother. Madred's and lifesteal items seems to be the most successful way to build him, though I'm yet to try him out myself.

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Anyone here have a clue how to play Shaco?

Not really, but we were discussing this video last night:

http://www.solomid.net/forums/index.php?...ial-video/

[Atlas]

Not really, but we were discussing this video last night:

http://www.solomid.net/forums/index.php?...ial-video/

I don't know how to play Shaco, but his seems pretty good. As someone that has played againist a lot of Shaco I can tell you that mastering the use of your clone and maximizing the use of your decieve are the two vital skills.

[VarisNox]

Not really, but we were discussing this video last night:

http://www.solomid.net/forums/index.php?...ial-video/

Reginaid is one of the best Shaco players in the game right now, so I would definitely say that video is a great starting point to learn. He also has general build information and tips for the game here at his incomplete guide, one of which is his Shaco builds: http://www.solomid.net/forums/index.php?/topic/4511-

The only player in my opinion that has a just as good, if not better, Shaco play at the moment is Nolja, who used Shaco to great effect against CLG in three of the recent Newegg Wanfest final games. If you can find any vids of him playing, both his style and Reginaid's style should give you an idea of how to play Shaco.

[Meciflorean]

[...] If Sivir isn't doing solid DPS, she's not doing her job.

Just my humble opinion on the matter. She may pub-stomp solo que, but she has almost no competitive qualities. When you start facing 4- and 5-man teams of players in their 25s-30s, you'll see that. I don't waste my time on her.

So it appears that Sivir was a major champion pick in the Newegg tournament finals just recently, and she apparently won games. Which of course means that she's now overpowered, flavor of the month, and will swiftly be pushed up to tier 2 or tier 1.

[Cull]

Sivir is not OP as champions like Sona, MF, and Xin were when they were released. Sivir needs to be farmed, as well as have a solid team just devoted to supporting her, giving her stuns, shields, heals, etc. Sivir is great, practically godlike 40+ minutes in, with a premade that just supports, supports, supports. OP =/= need smart play, last hit skills, and the like. She's a perfectly balanced champions that has her advantages and disadvantages. Shes like Kog IMO. Squishy, and need her whole team backing her up.

[Roland]

So it appears that Sivir was a major champion pick in the Newegg tournament finals just recently, and she apparently won games. Which of course means that she's now overpowered, flavor of the month, and will swiftly be pushed up to tier 2 or tier 1.

Expanding upon what Cull has already stated, and echoing my early comments, what does she bring to a competitive environment *on her own*? I've seen Teemo's "win" games by your reasoning. That does not make Teemo in any way a good, or even decent competitive pick.

I relate to you a quote from Elementz's Tier List:

Tier lists are not “what can this champion do?”, they’re “when choosing among all options, what characters offer the most, relatively, to the other choices you can make?”

...

While these might all be true, they don’t address his location at the bottom of the list. People are aware how his skills work and how they can be used – that’s obvious – what puts a character low in the tier list is how much value, in power and utility, the champion adds to the team.

Sivir has a decent passive that grants her minor survivability against AD-type champions, however it only procs while she's moving - which limits its use somewhat. She has a solid damage / harass skill in her Boomerang Blade (not completely dissimilar to Ashe's Volley, although that is bolstered by her base attack damage and has a wide cone AoE, rather than a straight-line, narrow band AoE only partially bolstered by her AD), but that is heavily hampered by mana cost (especially early on; Ashe's Volley is far cheaper). She has a solid short-ranged AoE damage ability in Ricochet, but that only procs from auto-attacking, and is again mana-dependent (although fairly mana efficient, moreso Ashe's Frost Shot - which has more tactical use than that doesn't require its constant activation). She has an on-demand Banshee's Veil passive ability with an increasingly short cooldown, but it takes practice and skill to use - quite as universally useful, IMHO, as Shen's Feint for most purposes, but incredibly useful under the right circumstances. And finally, Sivir's Ult creates a solid AoE buff to herself and allies, which can enhance chasing (or, gods forbid, escape), and increased attack speed (which, for the most part, will only affect the AD carry and maybe a melee tank/DPS - the rest will be too busy slinging their abilities rather than auto-attacking).

In return for all this, she presents a somewhat squishy DPS champ with limited range for her attacks (somewhere between melee and true ranged carry), has no stuns or other means of crowd control, has very limited AoE abilities - hampered by mana dependency, poor early jungling ability (when it matters most)... I could go on. Is she a weak champ? On her own, no. She's a well-balanced champ, IMHO, but well-balanced does not equate to strong competitive pick. I can not think of a single instance where I would rather take a Sivir over an Ashe, or a Tristana, or a Miss Fortune, but that doesn't make her a terrible champion - just a weak competitive pick.

Getting directly back to your comment about a Sivir who rocked the house in Newegg's sponsored games (edit: to say nothing of the fact that one Champion does not win games in LoL), a well-skilled competitive *player* can do marvels with almost ANY champion, especially when supported by equally well-skilled competitive players. However, the more non-competitive CHAMPIONS you stack on a team, the more the advantage slips over to the opposition. Taking two teams of equally-skilled players, and making one team have Alistar, Soraka, Sivir, Malzahar, and Nasus going up against Garen, Janna, Ashe, Annie, and Warwick... Well, let's just say I don't want to be on Sivir's team.

The bottom line is that this is not a Utopia - some Champions are simply "worse" than others. This does not make them underpowered, or the rest overpowered. It simply means that within the mechanics of the game some strategies work better than others, and because Champion abilities play such a large role in determining strategies, some Champions are better suited to high-skilled, competitive play than others. That's all I am saying. If that means you're going to complain about how Sivir isn't weak simply because you enjoy playing her... well, again, you're missing the point. By all means, play what you enjoy - just don't expect every Champion to perform equally well, regardless of the player, and thus those of us who are competitive-minded, and take each game more seriously than you, to be completely OK with your choice to play Sivir. It's not personal against you (edit: unless, of course, someone is implying that you are deficient in LoL simply because you enjoy playing Sivir - but that's neither here nor there).

Edit:
In response to Cull's opinion that Sivir is "Godlike" when properly farmed up, I must hesitate to stand behind that statement. She is no more "Godlike" when at her full potential than, say, Ashe or Tristana or Miss Fortune, for all the reasons I detailed above and more. Can she dish out solid DPS? Absolutely. Can she backdoor like a beast? Totally. But can she single-handedly swing a team fight on her own? Eh, not so much as other carries. Unless you can get the enemy team to stand there and get whacked by her Ricochet shots, she's very prone to kiting and flanking. Other ranged AD carries have more overall utility (MF's AoE slow + damage, and AoE damaging Ult, Ashe's single-target and multi-target damage + slow, her scouting ability, and her damage + stun Ult, Tristana has much better range, an attack speed self-buff, a ranged AoE damage + slow / escape ability, an anti-healing ability, and a damage + knockback Ult) combined with the basic ability to dish out gobs of damage in short order.

Where Sivir shines is her ability to do that damage in an AoE fashion induced by her Ricochet ability - but at a reduced range (and thus greater risk) compared to her contemporaries. Plus, aside from an AoE ally buff, she brings no other utility to the team, specifically a teamfight. Ashe can initiate, interrupt, and catch a fleeing Champion. Likewise for Tristana (Ult and Rocket Jump). Even Miss Fortune can, although to a lesser extent (Make it Rain). A Champion that's mostly a one-trick pony is simply not going to be as strong as one who has more versatility, plain and simply, and you will find that in the higher-level competitive environments - regardless of how strong that one trick may be.

At any rate, enough ranting. I enjoy good discourse on a subject, but it's past my bedtime.