[SPOILERS] There Can Only Be One Suttree - French Fredrick - LOL, Sut?

[SevenSpirits]

I'm sensing a philosophical argument coming on about how everything in civ ultimately interacts in with the map...unless you can force a concession via economics. This is probably not the thread for that debate though.

[Leading Question] How does this apply to military units? Or is this only useful for valuing items that are not represented on the map?

The less something interacts with the map, the more accurately you can abstract what it does. Sometimes you can abstract things accurately enough that it's useful. That's the point of models, to abstract things. I mean, we are in a lot better position in Civ IV than in real life - at least we can look up the game rules! And people still do chemistry.

I don't know well enough to apply it to military units. Well, sometimes you can figure out how many units you need to garrison a particular spot, and then you can figure the cost of those units into the cost of settling the city. (But then what are you planning to do with that number?) And of course you can figure out a better approximation of the real cost of building a unit - not the hammer cost, but the value of whatever you could have built instead.

[suttree]

I suspect that the mean interest rate is the same or similar when comparing quick and normal speed.

@SevenSpirits - You're right, this is completely wrong. Tile yields are unchanged so interest rate scales with costs. Speculating=bad.

@Krill - Valuing military is a problem because, in theory, it's a waste. You build a better economy than your opponent, then pump out military units 'til he dies. In practice, it's part of a game that has nothing to do with the economy. Since it's my thread, here are my thoughts

Defensive military is easy, it just gets factored at face value in to the cost of the investment the military is defending. Seven's numbers are useful because they allow you to take build cost (in hammers) and maintenance (in gold per turn) and lump them together in a sensible way. You can answer questions like, "How much will it cost me to settle this frontline city?" Also, the numbers attune you to the most efficient way to build your military. For example, "Why is a single Heroic Epic city better than many hybrid cities?", "Why is Slavery efficient?"

But offensive military is entirely game dependent. It doesn't seem that way at first : "Look at my opponent! Noob doesn't have an army, I'll build an axe and take his entire empire! Woo 1000% return on investment!" Unless combat is skewed towards the attacker, however, this should never work. Your opponent just builds his own axe, and everyone's worse off. This is the problem of guns and butter - at the margin it is always better to build military than not, but over the long term everybody loses. So military is a a complete waste of resources and my opponents should never build a single military unit.

And yet expert players build military. Why?

In diplo games, military is an extension of the diplomatic game. Two players might develop their economy equally, but the player who has more influence wins. The threat of force is a useful psychological tool for garnering influence and takes its value from the judgement of the expert diplomat.

In no diplo games, warfare is a game of tactics. The expert player might not have the best economy, but he can gather information more efficiently and predict the behaviour of his opponents more accurately. The expert player builds military because he knows his opponent, in practice, will not respond. Or he uses tactics to spend less on military than his opponents and achieve the same result.

And that's why experts build more military than noobs like myself!

I fully admit that my goal in this game is to build an economy and then do something with it. PB13 on the other hand.....

[TheHumanHydra]

You could look at it another way (not saying you should, but you could), that offensive military is the end-goal, not just another factor in the economic calculus. This mostly applies to the smaller pbems, I think, where victory is typically determined by concession to a player who has developed real and potential military might sufficient to eliminate his opponents without contest. In this paradigm, the purpose of the economy is in the end to 1) build units and 2) research technologies to build better units. So the question is not for what economic purpose you build military, but for what military purpose you build your economy. This said, I am an evil little man who quadruple-drafts his cities and quintuple-whips his builds; this is more the Star Trek Mirror Universe version of the discussion you're having than anything else, and possibly insane. Have a nice day.

Edit: This was all also implicit in what you guys were saying. I is smrt.

[suttree]

*Located borders for BXB and my chariot Wayne's World is moving in synchro with the Byzantine chariot Party On.
*Peace has expired with Sisu, and will not be renewed so that I can contest the land to my NW.
*Buddhism spread to Silers so it looks like I'll have religion after all.
*Planning is complete for the t101 golden age. Mount Guyot is growing slower than I estimated, so it'll take a few turns after the golden age to get my academy scientist. Otherwise, I'll generate two merchants to bulb Currency and Metal Working, pop borders in five cities, convert to Buddhism, and finish the golden age in Organized Religion. After the golden age, I'll use OR to whip in infrastructure and take a run at the Colossus. Depends if Sisu has any plans to build it, I guess. He only has one coastal city that I know of, so I have hope.
*With Currency, Org courthouses, classical era infrastructure, and Triremes I'll be in a good position to move against Sisu or Oxy or expand peacefully if the option is available.
*Even after a bunch of whips, demos are looking good.

DEMOS

OVERVIEW

CRYPTIC NOTES FOR GOLDEN AGE PREP

Code:

CLINGMANS

t88,7   4f/t  16h/t  3f  50h(Settler)      WORKER
t91,7   9f/t  12h/t  3f  19h+45h(Granary)  CHOP, SETTLER
t92,7   9f/t  12h/t  12f 16h(Chariot)      GRANARY
t94,7   9f/t  12h/t  30f 10h(Chariot)      CHARIOT(8)
t95,8   9f/t  12h/t  22f 22h               GROW
t96,8   9f/t  12h/t  31f 4h(Chariot)       CHARIOT(9)
t97,9   9f/t  12h/t  22f 16h               GROW
t99,10  9f/t  12h/t  20f 10h(Spear)        CHARIOT(10)
t100,10 11f/t 14h/t  29f 22h
t101,11 11f/t 14h/t  20f 1h(Courthouse)    GROW,Axe(11)  
t101,11 -3f/t 20f 63GPP/T 0GPP
t105,11 -2f/t 8f  45GPP/T 252GPP
t106,11 -3f/t 6f  63GPP/T 297GPP
t107,11 -2f/t 3   45GPP/T 360
t108,11       1f          GREAT MERCHANT

NEWFOUND
t88,6   9f/t  4h/t   15f 22h(Spear)        GROW,SPEAR
t90,7   9f/t  4h/t   17f 28h               GROW
t92,8   9f/t  4h/t   18f 31h(Spear)        GROW,SPEAR
t94,9   9f/t  4h/t   18f 4h(Spear)         GROW,SPEAR
t97,10  9f/t  4h/t   26f 16h               GROW
t99,11  9f/t  4h/t   24f 24h               GROW
t100,11 8f/t  4h/t   33f 28h      
t101,11 -f/t  -h/t   41f 32h  
t101,11 -3f/t 41f 54GPP/T 2GPP
t105,11 -3f/t 29f 54GPP/T 218GPP
t106,11 -8f/t 26f 72GPP/T 272GPP  10h/t  0h  - work mine
t107,11 -8f/t 18f 72GPP/T 326GPP  10h/t  10h
t108,11  1f/t 10f 18GPP/T 398GPP  10h/t  20h
t109,11                   416GPP         30h - 3-whip
GS t116

GUYOT t89,96
t88,3   8f/t  2h/t   21f 62h(Library)      
t89,4   8f/t  2h/t   16f 94h               GROW
t90,4   8f/t  2h/t   24f 6h(WB)            LIBRARY
t91,5   8f/t  2h/t   18f 0h(Spear),8h
t92,3   8f/t  2h/t   26f 62h,8h            WHIP(10)
t93,4   8f/t  2h/t   21f 37h               SPEAR
t94,5   8f/t  2h/t   15f 9h(Chariot)       WB,CHARIOT
t95,5   12f/t 2h/t   23f 11h               BORDERS
t96,6   12f/t 2h/t   20f 43h               GROW
t97,7   12f/t 2h/t   16f 15h               GROW
t98,7   12f/t 2h/t   28f 17h               GROW
t99,8   12f/t 2h/t   23f 19h               GROW
t100,8  12f/t 2h/t   35f 21h
t101,9  -1f/t 25f   54GPP/T 0GPP
t104,9  -6f/t 22f   63GPP/T 162GPP
t105,9  -16f/t16f   81GPP/T 225GPP
t106  GREAT MERCHANT 300                   PRODUCE GPP, then 4-whip t109

[suttree]

Uggh... worked all weekend . Then, in order to avoid a double move against Oxy, I had to wait FOREVER to play this turn. Then my start in PB13 sucked, then Oxy decides to settle on my border.

Declared war, killed his axe with my chariot. City defended with axe and spear, but is isolated and will die.

Wasted too much time on the computer, will post pictures after next turn.

[suttree]

Exchange with Oxy via PM:

Hey, just wanted to say sorry about not ending the turn until there was 4 hours left on the clock, I realized the need for a turn split, but I was under the mistaken impression that you had played after me, so I was waiting for you to end your turn Just to clarify, we're in a turn split, with myself in the first half and you playing after me, correct?

Anyway, good luck on the battlefield

Yup. I had been playing first for some time, but a few turns back things switched around. I prefer to move first so I don't have to worry about splits, perhaps we can switch back after peace Sorry for the confusion.

Oxy overextended and can't hold the city - I have axes chopped out of Silers for the next few turns and axes from Newfound if he gets creative. As axes arrive on scene, I'll offer peace for the city so he can save his troops (axe,spear,chariot). Probably won't accept this turn, but at least I get the idea in his head.

Otherwise, everything is directed towards the t100 push for the golden age.

DEMOS

OVERVIEW

[suttree]

Also, bears:

[Commodore]

Decided lakes were enough to feed marble/silver/stagnation, I take it then?

[Cornflakes]

Decided lakes were enough to feed marble/silver/stagnation, I take it then?

Lakes? Those aren't lakes near marble/silver (tile yields only have one food).

[Commodore]

I'm blind, it would seem.