I've been thinking about IND. I'm fairly sure it's actually too weak in it's current form, compared to every other trait.
Hear me out on the reasoning, because I think this game has been a good example of the issues.
The first point I don't see as a huge problem, that's what IND is probably best as, a late game trait that leaves a window in the early game to getting rushed. I think how it verges into second point is a problem that will need fixing though.
I reckon that the best solution is two step: All the Industrial National Wonders are changed in cost to be 50% the base cost of the standard national wonder, and because of the way it's coded with a massive production bonus, it will never really cost less than 50% by any appreciable amount: What is a 25% production bonus on a 19000% production bonus after all? This does put a limit on the weakness in step 2 because it will make sure there is always a "cheap" version available to build, rather than paying more for a second version to go into a weaker city.
The second step is that I think the requirements to build those National Wonders (Only the Industrial version) are altered: Heroic Epic loses the level 4 unit requirement, National Epic is brought forward to Aesthetics, Oxford/Wall Street/Iron Works etc lose the civ wide university requirement (still required in the specific city though).
What this does is it shortens the window of opportunity where IND is essentially worthless. Maybe by T150 IND is starting to look powerful: It should be if it's doing nothing for the first 100 turns. It makes IND usable in the mid game because NE and HE are the two main National Wonders that power IND into the Renaissance era National Wonders, where IND starts to really pay back. If the NE and NW aren't available, then IND is way too weak to function. The other stuff, the changes to the later National Wonders I am less sure about, but I think it's worth discussing: it may be that just removing the requirement for all of the base buildings is enough of a cost saving to buff IND, but at the same time, I then have to wonder about the benefit of pushing for the second National Wonder if it has to go into a weaker city if it's going to cost the same anyway. Maybe I'm just sleep deprived after getting 6 hours sleep in the past 48 hours. I dunno.
Hear me out on the reasoning, because I think this game has been a good example of the issues.
- First of all, IND does nothing until you either get MC and finish a forge, at which point you are down a Classical era tech and need to push 240 hammers through it (minus any happy resource doubling). By this point every other trait will have contributed something, even SPI will have saved around 2 turns if not more (Slavery, religion revolt, OR or caste are all potential points of saving turns, and 40 hammer temple for a GP for the first GA or a shrine) and that gives a pretty large window of opportunity for some other player to capitalize on: just look at Elkad. It is fine to pick a late game trait, but it has to be strong come the end game. I'm not arguing that IND is not strong in the late game, just that it probably takes too long to turn on.
- The second point is that the second copy of the National Wonders aren't as strong as the first copy in 2 ways: They cost more because they have no effective modifiers, and they get put into worse cities than the original National Wonders. Instead of the HE and NE going into the two best cities, even though there is choice about where each one goes, the second copies go into the third and fourth best cities which are by definition weaker. Therefore, even by the end game, IND will not be benefiting to the extent that the sum of the national wonder outputs are essentially doubled.
The first point I don't see as a huge problem, that's what IND is probably best as, a late game trait that leaves a window in the early game to getting rushed. I think how it verges into second point is a problem that will need fixing though.
I reckon that the best solution is two step: All the Industrial National Wonders are changed in cost to be 50% the base cost of the standard national wonder, and because of the way it's coded with a massive production bonus, it will never really cost less than 50% by any appreciable amount: What is a 25% production bonus on a 19000% production bonus after all? This does put a limit on the weakness in step 2 because it will make sure there is always a "cheap" version available to build, rather than paying more for a second version to go into a weaker city.
The second step is that I think the requirements to build those National Wonders (Only the Industrial version) are altered: Heroic Epic loses the level 4 unit requirement, National Epic is brought forward to Aesthetics, Oxford/Wall Street/Iron Works etc lose the civ wide university requirement (still required in the specific city though).
What this does is it shortens the window of opportunity where IND is essentially worthless. Maybe by T150 IND is starting to look powerful: It should be if it's doing nothing for the first 100 turns. It makes IND usable in the mid game because NE and HE are the two main National Wonders that power IND into the Renaissance era National Wonders, where IND starts to really pay back. If the NE and NW aren't available, then IND is way too weak to function. The other stuff, the changes to the later National Wonders I am less sure about, but I think it's worth discussing: it may be that just removing the requirement for all of the base buildings is enough of a cost saving to buff IND, but at the same time, I then have to wonder about the benefit of pushing for the second National Wonder if it has to go into a weaker city if it's going to cost the same anyway. Maybe I'm just sleep deprived after getting 6 hours sleep in the past 48 hours. I dunno.