Cyneheard's PBEM10 Thread

[Cyneheard]

Up to 13 cities now:
9 on home triangle.
2 on SE Island
1 on SW Island
1 Iron City

On the home island, all of 6 tiles are currently unimproved. 4 have workers on those tiles finishing off their improvements, the others are the incense and a grassland I'm preserving to spread irrigation post-CS. Similarly, the SW Island will be done next turn (except for roads, of course. I WILL HAVE MY ROAD SPAGHETTI! Every tile is going to be roaded, the worker labor can't do much else)

Tech Path:
T82:
Feudalism (due EOT84)
T86: Revolt to Religion (Hinduism if AP not finished by Serdoa, Buddhism if so)
T87: Build AP (if available)
T88: Triple-Revolt HR, Vassalage, Theo.

Other possibility: I may take a risk and run a merchant to save myself a turn on the GE. Right now, I'm at 54/67 at 5 GPP/t. So if next turn I run 1 merchant, that will get me to 67/67, with a 95.5% chance of a GE. Is it worth a 4.5% GMerchant risk to save 1t? Probably. Also, there's a lot of $$$ I could collect off of the GM. Send it to Tatan or Ad Hoc's capital, burn for 1000ish gold, and get 15t turns of 100% Science. Heck, might even send one of them marble on the condition that they'll build TOA.

Compass: ETA whenever, likely EOT87. Cothons will be great, but build priorities for a new(ish) city are:
Granary, Lighthouse and Culture Source In Some Order
Forge/AP Monastery/AP Temple: Monastery before temple, of course (Cheaper, don't need happy)
Cothon
Library OR Barracks + Stables (Barracks alone is fairly useless: 7XP vs 4XP is a small difference), depending on priorities.

Near-term tech goals after that:
Construction
HBR
Calendar? (Might move up the list if I lose the AP: Hand-build MOM and expect the GE to rush Taj later; or could head for Paper and get Sankore, not sure)
Aesthetics --> Lit and Drama: HE + Moai city is a given. Have the workers to bulldoze those new cottages if needed. NE, not sure where I'd want it.

[Cyneheard]

How To Make Lemonade out of Fishless Fishing Villages:



So, Cold County has ZERO 3-food tiles. And very few sources of hammers. You can see that the first building I built was a Monument, since I needed to expand my borders for easy galley access to the city: I currently have to take a long route through Tatan's territory, and that's just asking for trouble later.

Therefore, how can this city be useful?
Well, I think the first thing is that it shouldn't be whipped until it gets above size 8. Unlike normal cities, where that 2/0/2 coastal tile gets replaced fairly quickly, that can't happen with a 2fpt city. However, 2/0/1 tiles barely pay for their added maintenance.

The other: I get 5 base hpt easily. With the AP being built soon, I'm looking at this build order:
Lighthouse (as seen above), will be whipped ASAP to get the granary done sooner. If I hand-built both, I'd barely be size 3 when the granary completed. If I whip, then I'll be barely size 2 when the granary's finished (also 4t sooner). I get 8f from the whip back by filling the granary while growing to size 3, so I'm only out like 4f total: hand-building the lighthouse costs me 4f by working that 1/0/2 tile for 4t.
Then, once the granary's in, it'll be AP Monastery and AP Temple. Walls will get built whenever I feel anxious enough about the city to do so. Note: Walls will get 1t of work before the NAP expires with Tatan, so that I CAN whip them in 1t if needed.
That gets me to 9hpt, +2fpt, and a granary. At this point, the city's now functional, if weak. But it'll also be more than paying for itself with something like 13 or 15 commerce, and a 10% beaker bonus for extra kicks. Units may be the order of the day from that point on, just spitting out everything under the sun.

A forge may or may not be built: a forge has a 40t payback horizon with this city. The city won't be size 9 during that 40t payback horizon (and each pop whipped only saves 2.5t anyway). So not likely to really be worth it. The Monastery (20t) and Temple (27t) pay back much sooner, and have the added cultural boost which is helpful.

ETA for the basic buildings:
10t for Lighthouse + Granary.
8t Monastery.
8t Temple.
4-6t walls.
So, we're talking about 30t...Jesus, that's forever. But what else can you do with a No-Land, No-Food site like this?

[T-hawk]

But what else can you do with a No-Land, No-Food site like this?

You already have Moai Statues somewhere else? Is the Colossus built?

I usually don't build this kind of city in the first place, but if you're going to have it, yeah about the best it can do is grow to all the 2-0-2 water tiles and whip something whenever it would pick up a 2-0-1. I do usually do a forge in cities like this, if only to make the city shut up for 20 turns and I don't have to think about it. The 40 turn payback horizon does come down with some AP hammers added.

[Cyneheard]

Moai goes elsewhere, where it's actually buildable. Why set this city to build Moai for 15-20t AFTER everything else, when I can knock out Moai in a few turns?

Colossus is long gone: TT Oracled MC way back when, and got Colossus in the mid-T60s.

40t payback is with the AP:
4 hammers (iron)
1 hammer (center)
4 hammers (AP buildings)
= 9 base hammers * 1.25 for 2hpt.

Agreed, this city wouldn't be worth building, normally. But that's my only source of iron, so at least I'm getting something for my trouble besides 2 trade routes.

[Cyneheard]

Well, last turn was boring. This turn? Not so much.

WAR!

Serdoa has declared war on Tatan. WTF: #6 in power declaring war on #1 in power? In what universe does that make any sense?



Oh, right, this universe: Where there's a stack like this in range, and two captured workers. There's also a Combat II HA at 4.8/6 on the stone tile.

Power graph:



*popcorn*

I helpfully let Tatan know about the HA on the stone. Figured it can't hurt: easy gesture, and probably doesn't help Tatan all that much. But it looks friendly.

Besides, that will make it all the more delightful if I decide to also hit him, say around T100. Must think about whether I want to do that...depends a lot on how this war goes.

[Cyneheard]

So, some correspondence with Tatan:

Just got the save and saw that stack on the deer tile. Not sure what he's thinking, being 6th in power and attack you at 1st.

I don't see any sign of a navy of his, but that one workboat isn't going to do much. He's closed borders with me. Show Serdoa that he's been a little reckless.

Oh, and a Great Engineer has been born in Carthage. We'll see what happens over the next couple of turns.

I also warned him (forgot in this email) to mention the CII HA on the stone. So, that one was sent when I got the turn.

His response:

As you may have detected from my rising power graphs, I was going to attack him; he sniffed it out and asked me, we negotiated potential peace, negotiations failed, and we are fighting. He claims to have both longbows and cats, but I have seen neither so far.

I must admit, I did not expect such a full-blown assault on the island between us; but it is doomed to failure because of spear-whips. Hopefully, this means his home turf is vulnerable.

I don't know about "showing Serdoa he is reckless", seeing as I'm usually pretty reckless myself.


I'm actually expecting an engineer myself relatively soon.

-Tatan

Key point: "he sniffed it out and attacked me." Well, I DID warn Serdoa about the spiking power graph, and the NAP status between me and Tatan. So I may have caused this conflict to happen the way it did.

My response:

Since we were under a NAP for quite some time, I figured you were almost certainly going to attack him (why rush tons of units 15t before our NAP runs out?). Your graph SPIKED, it had been near mine, and now it's like 50k ahead. Enjoy tearing him a new one. Show him that Wonderspamming is not the route to victory.

Well, his GNP has been a little ridiculous for some time. Considering that I'm almost in Feud (You'll see me revolt to Vassalage fairly shortly), and have had a crappy GNP (I think at 100% research I'm at best 3rd place), I wouldn't disbelieve him. Although he's probably sacrificed a lot of growth by running Rep Scientists, and that will hurt him.

Yeah, his power is the lowest or close enough, and considering that I count 35k in that stack (don't forget the HA on the stone) (I'm surprised none of his HA are Shock. Combat II only? Really?).

The Engineer will rush the AP the turn after next (need a state religion first).

So, LB, HA and Catapults? Fun times, Tatan. At least you've got the spears a'plenty. However, I think there's a very good chance that I'm going to engineer my army to hit him around T100. At least if there's some real blood spilled. No, I do not trust Serdoa with that information AT ALL. He could sell me out in a heartbeat if I suggested that he not agree to a long-term peace deal. It really depends a lot on the peace deal: If it means that Tatan's secure in the south, attacking him would be a very bad idea.

[Cyneheard]

AP successfully rushed as being Hindu. This is going to take some time to pay off, but I'll appreciate the hammers, right now TT needs the boost, and this deal functions as though I spent a Great Person on a shrine.

Fascinating:

Axes appeared overnight in Serdoa's turf, I looked at the trading screen, and sure enough Meatbalz is giving away an iron to him. I'm not going to be making any progress on Serdoa's home island any time soon. Oh well.

-Tatan

My response:

Well, that sucks.

I think I should be congratulating you on getting the first Great General? Power graph suggests that he took the bigger hit this turn.

The AP has been completed, and it is Hindu. Sorry, Serdoa didn't want to match TT's offer.

Actually, it doesn't suck for me. Tatan's now got a real mess on his hands, and only like 9 cities, that's not enough to whip out a huge army if needed. Especially if I come knocking, as well.

[Cyneheard]

Waiting for the save to return.

Tatan asked to renew the NAP that expires T95 (the earliest fighting can happen is T96. When I get the save, I'll post a strategic and tactical plan for my cities).

More interesting, however, was this chat with ad hoc:

He's going to hit TT before Meatbalz can on T100.

We agreed to:
1) Extend our NAP to T125, and the cooldown is now 10t
2) Non-interference with each other's wars. This covers selling iron and gifting or selling units to the other's target. OBs are fine.
3) If Ad Hoc captures TT's Hindu shrine, I still get my part of the shrine income. If the shrine is razed or MB gets it, well, that sucks. Razed wouldn't bother me all that much, and Ad Hoc won't trust MB with it. So I should be fine. Essentially, the deal carries over to Ad Hoc if he gets the shrine.

TT, your days are numbered. I'm not sure how you get out of that one.
Tatan, your days are also likely numbered. If I burn your iron, and Serdoa and I get to work...

It's so easy when you're evil.

Chat to be posted later.

[Cyneheard]

anthony: hi
me: g'day
anthony: okey cokey your popeness
me: heh. This chat's staying between us? Since I'm sure this could get ugly if it leaked to the other four...
anthony: yep, i'm a bit paranoid so i don't even post diplo dumps in my thread
me: wow, that's paranoid. Then again, I've promised some people (Krill, among others), to know my scheming. So, about the AP: That was an interesting investment.
Since as a condition of building it as Hindu, I get from TT all the income derived from my Hindu cities.
anthony: ah, was a bit surprised as i don't know if AP is worth it in MP
me: I want the hammers, and now it doubles as a shrine. So the GE does double duty as a GP. On this map, the hammers are quite valuable
anthony: Yes, anything giving hammers is worth it
me: This, of course, complicates whether or not I'd want you and Meatbalz to both crash TT's party. I'm assuming that Meatbalz is planning on doing so, especially since he's not going to be fighting Serdoa, and doesn't trust TT.
5:07 PM So, here's my thinking:
anthony: i haven't spoken to MB for about 5 turns, but his plan was to as you put it crash TT. I DON'T REALLY WANT THAT TO HAPPEN. sorry bout caps, not much of a typer
me: How long does your NAP run with TT, if I may ask?
anthony: what NAP lol
me: Ah, ok.
anthony: OB's only. as far as i know MB's is to T100
me: that's what I've heard from both of them, and I haven't heard from MB for a while. That (OBs only) was my initial intention with Tatan, but because of us splitting the iron island, I've got one with him through T95. So, are you considering propping TT up with an iron?
anthony: strictly confidential i'm planning on hitting TT in 5 or so turns
me: That's what i figured you'd be doing. [YES! Good news!] Well, (I'll know more when I get the save back), I'm considering hitting Tatan. Take advantage of this 2v1 situation. Can't until T96, but... he'll be in for a world of hurt with 2 opponents and I can hit first
anthony: i guessed hitting Tatan would be on your agenda,
me: Here's what I'm thinking:
We extend our NAP out a ways.
Guarantee non-interference in the other's conflict (if mine goes well, I'll have a spare iron)
And if you capture the Hindu Shrine (if MB gets it, or it gets razed by either of you, that's life), I still get my part of the shrine.
I know I don't have much leverage over part 3, but it makes me feel better about selling TT out so easily. We'd also not screw the other on AP resolutions (i.e., get permission of the other, no one goes for Religious Victory)
anthony: seems fair, so you get shrine income for all your cities, no AP nastiness.
me: yeah. It didn't hurt TT any, since otherwise I wouldn't be spreading Hinduism. That's why I didn't talk about Confucianism with you, I'd already cut that deal
anthony: no probs as i'm a long way from a prophet and i've got nearly as many hindu cities as conf.
me: Hehe
anthony: the no interference means no trading iron or gifting units
me: right. Or, frankly, selling units. If I was being peacefully meddlesome, selling spears for HA with Tatan would have been tempting since I don't get HA. WHY DID I TAKE CARTHAGE.
I can't cancel OBs with TT, and he still owes me gold, so I'm going to have to do that much. How long should we extend our NAP for?
anthony: T125 10 turn cooldown?
me: Bumping up the cooldown from 7t to 10t, that's fine.
I should figure out who I'll spend EP on once I max out graphs on all 5 of ya'll.
And T125's a 25t extension...yeah, there's no way the wars will continue unless someone surrenders. I will be honest: if TT surrenders again, I WILL curse a blue streak in the forum. The man needs to put up a fight. And he's almost got LB. [Trust me on that one. If you thought I way annoyed at Kyan for the iron placement, you ain't see nothing yet]
I do find it fascinating that all of these wars are going to be in the LB era, but that's how we roll.
anthony: i don't think it's going to be quick to take him out, lots of maces and cats, once his horse supply is gone though its just slogging. i'm going to spend my esp on MB, i'm not liking his growth, he's got 13 cities and room for more on his/serdoa island
me: You've got Maces? The horse supply's going to be tough, since it's in the center of his island. This Theo detour slowed my teching a bit.
anthony: two turns 4 CS, trying to work out if a turn in anarchy is worth it just before i go to war.
me: And Machinery, I gather, so Optics isn't too far away... [Well, Machinery instead of Feud, makes sense]
anthony: not sure on tech path after CS, might fill in some anc techs i've missed.
me: My expansion pattern really slowed down my teching. Then again, you're creative, which helped a fair amount.
anthony: it did and it didn't, knowing that i could get second ring resources without building any culture my city placement isn't that good on my main island
me: True, but the cheap libs helped. About 10t ago, I had 2 libraries built. Spamming those workers and settlers took precedence.
anthony: i was lucky with TT looking at MB I got all my south island just for me
me: yeah, especially after you got a good portion of our island. since I knew you were the wrong player to risk confrontation with. Cre/Pro was NASTY in the chariot/archer era.
anthony: nasty combination if played right, surprised gilgamesh was in mix as he's one of my favourite leaders, and he does gel with greece as well
me: aye, he's solid. Greece isn't a bad civ, either. Phalanxes let you axe-rush with impunity (and now only HA and LB scare them). Odeons are nice. Cothons are better, but Phalanx >>> Numids. Well, Cothons are better on this map. I still don't get why Serdoa thought that Qin was the best leader out there [Broken record, I know]
anthony: in some ways cothon are better than GL, they never go out of date..... Wonder Whore i should think, it's easy to get distracted by shiny wonders but only a few are really worth it
me: Agreed. Hand-built Pyramids are a fool's errand. Especially since I don't think he had stone at the time. Stonehenge, yeah, that can be useful. Pyramids are meant to be GE'd.
anthony: no, i had a galley in area when he settled stone city, way after pyramids
me: Only ToA and Parthenon are near-wastes in MP play (of course, he's built Parthenon). heck, I've got both doublers, so theoretically I should be better-able to wonderspam than he
anthony: as good as being IND when building wonders
me: aye. and Imp was useful early (the extra GG points won't hurt later) and Cha's always helpful. Especially with navies. I win equal-tech naval warfare. At least once I'm fully Theo'd to get 4XP ships
anthony: yep, exta happy from CHA as well
me: aye, this map isn't that luxurious. I think my happy cap is 12 with Monument, Market and Forge. Not counting HR.
anthony: no, health isn't a problem but happies are, i think mine is too, your CHA and monument = my odeon
me: True, but mine's half the cost. Even after Cre.
From what I can tell, also, Serdoa is really unpredictable.
anthony: yep, i had him at about my level play wise. Tatan i thinks the same for unpredictability
me: Not nearly as much. Tatan's also easily threatened. He should have never split the iron island with me. He didn't need to, and he knew that. But he split it anyway.
I'll send you the exact terms of my deal with TT so you know. The shrine income includes multiplier boni, but that's about it.
anthony: yes, he shouldn't have done it. that's why i've been thinking about my three tile island, in the end it doesn't matter if it's three or four as first person there should settle to deny anybody else settling.
me: Well, if I had, say, 5 galleys sitting there, then he should have split it. Or, I'd have just taken it. I think 5 tiles was the way to have rigged it.
Where one city can't claim the ends unless you get 50 culture. And the iron ends up on both far ends. Also, my iron city's utter junk. No food res. Just the 2/4 iron tile, coast, and ocean.
anthony: i got lucky, iron, clams, crabs. hopefully going to be a useful city
me: that's definitely useful. Any food res would make such a huge difference. Can't even whip at 2fpt and can't build anything at 5hpt. 9, when I get the Monastery and Temple down. Forge doesn't really pay for itself. 80h to get 2hpt...
anthony: thats why i'm surprised at Tatan , he should have kept his head down until dikes, the hammer boost would be immense
me: Hopefully we can turn this 6-handed table into a 4-handed one. Then things get really interesting. Oh, and Serdoa still won't have an iron of his own. No Knights for him if none of us want him to. Late Ren's an even worse time to have no metal than right now. I should get going.

[Krill]

You've hung around me too much in the past year.