Research costs

[Seravy]

Done updating the AI research order. Spells will be picked in the following order (unless there is a modifier, in general the AI picks spells of a type and tier they already have another spell of later. More details on that and other rules that modify order can be found in the original AI research order thread)

Code:

"Magic Spirit C9"                                      
"Spell of Return D6"                                  
"None"                                                
"Giant Spiders 0E"                                    
"Lycanthropy AD"                                      
"Gargoyles 5F"                                        
"Sprites  9"                                          
"Skeletons A1"                                        
"Heavenly Light 8B - >80"                              
"War Bears 6"                                        
"Ghouls A6"                                            
"Nagas 31"                                            
"Hell Hounds 54"                                      
"Fire Bolt 53"                                        
"Fire Elemental 5A"                                    
"Black Sleep A5"                                      
"Nature's Eye 3"                                  
"Darkness A9"                                          
"Confusion 2E"                                        
"Call Centaurs 4"                                  
"Healing 7D"                                          
"Web 5"                                              
"Aura of Majesty 3B"                                  
"Shatter 58"                                          
"Wraith Form B5 ->A8"                                  
"Fairy Dust 7"                                    
"Heroism 82"                                          
"Holy Armor 7E"                                        
"Resist Magic 29"                                      
"Bless 79"                                            
"Just Cause 7F"                                        
"Guardian Wind 2C"                                    
"Blur 30"                                    
"Holy Weapon 7C"                                      
"Life Drain A7"                                        
"AEther Sparks 2A"                      
"Earth to Mud 1"                                      
"Endurance 7B"                                        
"Summoning Circle CB"                                  
"Focus Magic 2F"                                      
"Astral Gate 8B"                                      
"Planar Travel 8A"                                    
"Stream of Life 94 -> 84"                              
"Warp Wood 51"                                        
"Land Link 10"                                        
"Wall of Fire 57"                                      
"Raise Volcano 62"                                    
"Corruption 55"                                        
"Chaos Channels 5D"                                    
"Fireball 60"                                          
"Flame Blade 56"                                  
"Cloak of Fear A4"                                    
"Disrupt 52"                                          
"Mana Leak AA"                                        
"Phantom Warriors 2D"                                  
"Summon Zombies A3"                                    
"Psionic Blast 32"                                    
"Star Fires 7A"                                        
"Warp Creature 59"                                    
"Resist Elements 2"                                  
"Weakness A2"                                          
"Guardian Spirit 81"                                  
"Heroic Shout CD"                                      
"Floating Island 2B"                                  
"Water Walking 8"                                    
"Dispel Magic CA"                                      
"Lightning Bolt 5B"                                    
"Possession AC"                                        
"Reaper Slash B1"                                      
"New : Syphon Life AF"                                
"Ice Bolt 0D"                                          
"Fire Storm 6B->61"                                    
"Prayer 8C"                                            
"Divine Order 87"                                      
"Transmute 12"                                        
"Black Prayer AE"                                      
"Water Elemental 37"                                      
"Night Stalker B0"                                    
"Fire Giant 5C"                                        
"Shadow Demons B4"                                    
"Chimeras 64"                                          
"Unicorns 88"                                          
"Cockatrices 11"                                      
"Summon Hero D0"                                      
"Great Lizard 14"                                          
"!!!Aether Binding 39"                                
"Mystic Surge 5E"                                      
"Cracks Call 0B"                                      
"Change Terrain 0F"                                    
"Construct Catapult 0C"                                
"Flight 38"                                            
"True Sight 83"                                        
"Drain Power AB"                                      
"Vertigo 35"                                          
"Immolation 63"                                        
"Dispelling Wave 34"                
"Wall of Darkness B2"                                  
"Phantom Beast 3C"                                    
"Blood Lust B3"                                        
"Counter Magic 33"                                              
"Raise Dead 89"                                        
"Spell Lock 36"                                        
"Warp Node BA"                                        
"Elemental Armor 15"                                  
"Resurrection 85"                                      
"Earth Lore 0A"                                        
"Enlightenment 9D"                                      
"Pestilence C4"                                        
"Famine BD"                                            
"Flame Strike 6D"                                      
"Wave of Despair BB"                                  
"Doom Mastery 75 ->6C"                                
"Incarnation 8E"                                      
"Wraiths B8"                                          
"Doom Bat 61 ->6B"                                    
"Storm Giant 41"                                      
"Efreet 6A"                                            
"Gorgons 1B"                                          
"Stone Giant 17"                                      
"Angel 93"                                            
"Spell Blast 3A"                                      
"Detect Magic CE"                                      
"Enchant Item CF"                                      
"Chaos Spawn 67"                                      
"Disenchant Area CC"                                  
"Flying Fortress 4D ->46"                              
"Armageddon 78"                                        
"Survival Instinct 1C"                                
"Seismic Mastery 22"
"Invisiblity 3E"                                      
"Summon Champion D4"                                  
"Cloud of Shadow B9"                                  
"Dark Rituals A3 -> BE"                                
"Banish 40"                                            
"Uranus Blessing 3D"                      
"Petrify 16"                                          
"Mind Storm 43"                                        
"Earth Gate 25"                                        
"Gaia's Blessing 1D"                                  
"Exorcise 86"                                          
"Inspirations 98 -> 90"                                
"Altar of Battle 92"                                  
"Lionheart 8D"                                        
"Prosperity 91"                                        
"Zombie Mastery BC"                                    
"Wind Walking 3F"                                      
"Air Elemental 42"                                    
"Invulnerability 8F"                                  
"Magic Immunity 45"                                    
"Doom Bolt 68"                                        
"Wrack B6"                                            
"Spell Ward 48"                                        
"Call the Void 77"                                    
"Warp Lightning 65"                                    
"Iron Skin 18"                                        
"Earth Elemental 1E"                                  
"Earthquake 1A"                                        
"Terror A8 -> B5"                                      
"Holy Word 96"                                        
"Chaos Rift 6E"                                        
"Evil Presence B7"                                    
"Blazing March 66"                                      
"Magic Vortex 69"                                      
"Exaltation 84 -> 94"                                  
"Stasis 44"                                            
"Blizzard 19"                                          
"Mass Healing 95"                                      
"Disjunction D2"                                      
"Create Artifact D3"                                  
"Nature's Cures 13"                                    
"Move Fortress 1C ->D1"                                
"Consecration 9B"                                      
"Demon Lord C8"                                        
"Sky Drake 4E"                                        
"Djinn 47"                                            
"Great Drake 76"                                      
"Colossus 24"                                          
"Great Wyrm 27"                                        
"Death Knights C1"                                    
"Arch Angel 9F"                                        
"Behemoth 20"                                          
"Hydra 6F"                                            
"Spell Binding 4C"                                    
"Fairy Ring 28"                                    
"Suppress Magic 4F"                                    
"Doomsday 72"
"Life Force 9C"                                        
"True Light 80 -> Supreme Light 98"                    
"Charm of Life A0"                                    
"Crusade 9E"                                          
"Evil Omens C6"                                        
"Eternal Night C5"                                    
"Final Wave C7"                                        
"Apocalypse 73"                                        
"Massacre C2"                                          
"High Prayer 97"                                      
"Animate Dead C3"                                      
"Call Lightning 23"                                    
"Entangle 21"                                          
"Annihilate C0"                                        
"Mass Invisibility 4A"                                
"Disintegrate 70"                                      
"Holy Arms 9A"                                        
"Time Stop 50"                                        
"Herb Mastery 26"                                      
"Call to Arms 99"                                      
"Chaos Surge 74"                                      
"Haste 46 ->4D"                                        
"Warp Reality 6C -> 75"                                
"Meteor Storm 71"                                      
"Regeneration 1F"                                      
"Great Unsummoning 4B"                                
"Summon Demon BF"
"Creature Binding 49"                                  
"Spell of Mastery D5"                           

[Seravy]

Next thing to decide, Spell of Mastery costs.
Note that in this discussion I'll use effective costs. The visible cost in the game is one quarter of that due to integer restrictions (max is 65535), but research speed is also a quarter while it is being researched, so it's equivalent to paying the cost discussed below.

Researching all your spells combined costs 200k, and I think SoM should be on par with that.
In particular, all very rares total is 150k, and SoM research should take more than the "all very rares" phase.

Wait. We never calculated how long the "very rare phase" is. We merely assigned a cost based on the length of the rare phase. The income in the VR phase is not much higher than the rare phase, so VR research is likely slower.
Assuming 6 VR spells left, that's 90k.
We calculated with 2500 income for this phase and half of the income going into research, so 1250/turn. I don't think income grows significant past this point (even if you conquer more stuff, those endgame spells will wreck buildings), meaning 72 turns. That's...perfect. 6 years like all other phases. Nice.

Let's be on the safe side and say players (human or AI) will try to push research up in this phase, and commit 75% on RP instead. So 1875 RP/turn.

Question is, do we want to keep the "researched spells reduce SoM price" mechanic, or not. And how many years we want after the last very rare for SoM to appear.
I think it should be 6 to 10 years, probably 6. As that would make it possible to get instead of other spells, We likely need to preserve the researched spell reduces cost mechanic.

So we want a research cost of 72*1875 = 135000. But we also want each researched spell to be added to the cost, so add 206000. But that is too high, even with the hack we have in place to extend integer rage to 4 times, the limit is 262144 max.
So I think we need to get rid of the "research reduces SoM price" mechanic.
It's not like picking it earlier has ANY meaning in that system anyway - you'd never do so. As you get it done the same time even if you don't.

Without that mechanic, we have to be sure SoM costs high enough that players don't opt for researching it instead of all their very rares all the time. So total SoM cost should be comparable to the total cost of the last 7 very rares, or preferably about 50% higher than that. So you can get all your other spells, or spend 50% more time and get SoM only, but win the game. Sounds fair I think? Or is it too cheap still? Let's try 100%. So SoM at double the price of 7 very rares. That is 210000 RP, which would take 112 turns to do. 9.33 years. Quite a while but roughly matches what we have currently and sounds about fair.

So no cost reduction mechanism and 210000 RP for SoM.
That puts the timeline at
1400-1406 Commons
1406-1412 Uncommons
1412-1418 Rares
1418-1424 Very Rares
1433 Spell of Mastery.

Next question, do we want any AI or difficulty modifier for this. Right now the AI pays 50% more for SoM if difficulty is at least Master, to counter the boost from a high power income bonus. But the new research system will likely reduce the power bonus on the AI as well as the effectiveness of dumping all the power onto research as a tactic. So maybe the AI does not need this handicap.

[Nelphine]

I actually really like the mechanic that other spells reduce SoM - it feels good.

Can we instead change it to show 1/6 research at 1/6 to keep that mechanic?

[Seravy]

I guess we could if we really have to....
but I think I like SoM or other spells being an actual choice. Instead of always picking other spells and SoM still getting done at the same time. Albeit this clearly favors the human only, so idk.

[Seravy]

Some Raise Volcano math.

Let's assume we want it to break even after 50 turns and be profitable after that.

It costs 50 to create one.

So 50 MP for that, but you also need 50 skill to cast it. Over a 50 turn time period, you need 1 higher skill to get 50 total skill. Assuming your skill is at 70, the average for the UC tier, you pay 140 for 1 skill.

So total cost a volcano is 190. It produces 2 a turn, so it takes 95 turns to pay for itself. After that, you have 1 higher casting skill (we already included that in the cost) and 2 power/turn. That...actually isn't a bad deal. Assuming the Volcano stays around. So I reduced the chance of reverting to 0.5%. At the current 1%, the volcano would disappear soon after it started to be profitable. Which is not very good.

Of course this does not include any effect on enemy land, so the volcano is better than this if you put it on enemy cities, but there might be a retaliation for that, and volcanoes won't fight for you so...that has its own price. Overall I think the spell is not bad.
Except, you also need to pay for the research cost of 1280. If you want 20 volcanoes, that's 64 MP more each volcano and suddenly the math looks bad.

I think volcanoes should be 3 power each. This makes Armageddon more powerful though so we might want to reconsider how many volcanoes that generates/turn.

Or idk. If we look at it differently, you can get 20 volcanoes or 5 chimeras for 1000 casting skill. The volcanoes give you +40 power a turn. The chimeras, if they conquer an enemy city, give you...the same (well, if I include the research gains and the city is decent). The chimeras are better. Yea, definitely the volcano should be 3 power.

[Nelphine]

I don't think volcanoes should be 3/turn. They aren't primarily an economic spell. They're a city curse. The ai can't use them any other way except as a city curse. Turning them into a proper economic spell, which is what this would do, would be purely a human benefit. 

Preventing your opponent from producing adamamroum hammerhands, or orihicron magicians, is worth the price of research all on its own.

1%, with 2 power per turn, is fine. 


Corruption doesn't give any economic factor. Actual city curses from death give no economic benefit. Volcanoes don't need to even as much as they do already, let alone more.  (The idea that you could even consider casting volcanoes instead of chimera seems silly. You don't do that kind of comparison between wraiths and famine - and famine can be dispelled!)

[Nelphine]

Alternatively, you may be right. But in that case you need to give economic or military things to all city curses. (Corruption, evil presence, famine, warp node, pestilence, maybe chaos rift)

[Seravy]

Well, the thing is volcanoes are awful city curses.
I mean, yes, for destroying ores they are amazing.

But it's not Famine. Famine makes the city shrink because it removes food and adds unrest.
Volcanoes don't. Yes, the max food is reduced, so the city will be capped at a smaller population - if it isn't already maxed. But population already there, stays there. At best, they'll have fewer workers because their farmers are less efficient and they need more of them.

Now, that doesn't mean Volcanoes are bad. But you need about 20 of them to get anywhere near what Famine does. And Famine costs about 200, the lolcanoes would be 1000.

Raise volcano is mainly an ore destruction spell. After that it's an economic and terraforming spell (your tundra into a mountain or grasslands, or a chance of adamantium on it, failing both, at least you get power), and city curse is its least efficient function. I had a game against a Maniacal Chaos AI and it literally took them 15 volcanoes to turn one of my cities into something useless.

Oh, and Raise Volcano has a horrible flaw in being a city curse. It can't destroy rivers, nodes, and shores. So, some of the most valuable food tiles in the game. Even corruption is better for that sort of thing, it at least works on a river.

Let's see Armageddon. While I could go into all sorts of calculations, let's just assume every tile in the world is a volcano. So on fair, 800 tiles. That's 1600 power. We assumed at this phase the player has an income of ~2500. So Armageddon can't even double it. Which is sad for what is meant to be the most impressive "I have power!" spell.

At 3/volcano, you can at least double your power. Well, not really because it won't find all the empty tiles, and some will revert etc, but maybe you can stabilize at 2k. Instead of 1.3k.

Or I can just say "we increased overall power income from city and node sources by 25%. We need the same for volcanoes. We can't have 2.5 power so rounding up to 3." and that should be fine.

As for other power producing spells....
Seismic Mastery is fine. It has two different effects and power production is just the "extra".
Uranus Blessing is fine. It gives you a super solid Counter Magic in battles, on top of +22 power (still a 40% buff to total output) and even 4 skill.
Dark Ritual is probably not fine. Which is why it's posted in the Death thread.
Heavenly Light is fine. It was on the overpowered side to begin with and the main bonus should be the city defense. Guardian Spirit, same deal.
Nature's Eye is not fine but I already raised it to 4 research to fix that.
AEther Binding was on the OP side to begin with. In the phase you normally have an income of 230, it adds +70 by itself. In the one where you get 500, it adds 144. In the phase when you have 2.5k, it adds 216. Ok, maybe this isn't right. AEther Binding is actually getting underpowered by the changes. Probably should make it turns*2 or something? No that would be too much? Or maybe it's good as is. +30% early, +28% mid, +10% late. But early and mid are more valuable. And it even helps dispels. Albeit the 20 maintenance makes it look a bit worse to be honest.  Maybe a small buff? Add turns * 1.25?
Did I miss anything that produces power?

[zitro1987]

I agree with volcano giving +3 power to keep it more flexible with increased research costs. That way, a player can use it for mana enhancement strategies decently (would never be an overpowered choice)

[Seravy]

But in that case you need to give economic or military things to all city curses. (Corruption, evil presence, famine, warp node, pestilence, maybe chaos rift)

They kinda already do that.
Corruption disables the early ores, preventing a major snowball effect. It doesn't seem much but that early hit to those ores might turn into a 10-20% weaker enemy overall, worth thousands even in the midgame. And that's all it is meant for, really, at common you can't afford spamming it on every tile on the map.
Famine cuts food. Put it on every city, enemy army starves to death, or gets dangerously close to it. It also reduces productivity so it prevents enemy units from being created.
Warp Node is already economy, so is Evil Presence. They deny a large chunk of enemy resources to be generated. (which Raise Volcano cannot do.)
And Chaos Rift kills units.