I adjusted the plan to allow for more warriors (the fifth worker comes out later but it's not a big loss): we will have three by T34, sounds good? One can explore up to stepping on the southern gold hill (no further) by T38, while the other can poke around the east on a more lenient schedule (don't need him for garrison). Or poke around the gold more and around the east less.
Rome will not whip beyond this point, but grow to size6 on cottages, while Antium builds the next settler (6t if not whipping, but I think we should 1-whip him actually). Neapolis should probably also be producing a worker... This also has higher MFG than the previous proposal (demos are 42 CY, 23 MFG, 36 GNP, 39000 soldiers). Cumae's micro is slightly understaffed with workers here, but what should be happening is to swap build to a granary on this turn (20h chop), whip barracks next turn, and one worker mines while the other roads then camps ivory by T60.
There are several opportunities to redirect overflow into an 1t axe if we need a metal unit earlier (axe/spear finishes eot53). The worker that just chopped at Antium can instead connect the city to copper if needed (only need to road the tile west of sugar, the miniature river does the rest). Or we tech Sailing -- actually, that might not be the worst idea, since Writing is blank for a while, we don't get a good payoff from non-discounted libraries this early, and a galley could make for a useful explorer (produce it at Antium after settler). We need Sailing sooner or later anyway because Calendar is a key tech here for +2 happiness.
I think cottage/granary timing is such that AH before Pottery might work for us, btw. If so we can make a chariot in a convenient fashion several turns earlier than an axe iirc. Discovering horses earlier is nice for planning. Also AH shows up as more soldier points.
T32: Slavery established. Settled our second city, Canoel, formerly known as Antium, which is working a 201 tile for a turn so that we can make full use of all our improved tiles on the next few (that's the brief explanation, the capital will need this extra food down the line; we'll also avoid delaying the barracks whip since 2f + 4*5f = 22f, which is why it's not 121).
Foreign news: Magic Science settled on T31, and his city claims seven first-ring land tiles; could be coastal or adjacent to one of these lakes. I'm tentatively assuming the former, since the lakes are slightly more distant for us, such that a T31 settlement probably wouldn't reach them -- although of course they needn't be for others.
No increase in Rival Best Soldiers, but Rival Best GNP is 29 to our 20 -- more than likely just the effect of prereqs (on what I'm assuming is MSci's (?) 40%-boosted Pottery research at 21 "base" GNP). I'm tempted to scout for a few turns with the warrior garrisoning Canoel, as long as the danger of impi outpacing him remains zero.
I would rather consider exploring with discounted work-boat. Galleys and Sailing itself seems to be too expensive unless we find some island to bumb our trade routes.
Writing doesnt provide great outcome by itself but it is on a route for key techs. If we can start teching Maths earlier, lets do it. Also library somewhere to start growing great artist seems to be worth investment, because it is better not to whip it to be able to put specialists in measurable time. One day we will want to run GA but the way there starts here from this small brick.
Is any of religion taken? It usually explains "big" GNP at this period of the game.
Only galleys can ferry obsolescent units to their doom at the earliest opportunity. Moth to the flame.
But suppose I can restrain myself for the sake of Rome: then Maths should come in at ~T70 with 7 cities in the obvious locations, and 3-4 hamlets. Let's just go for that, yes. I think we should play for the Gardens while teching Currency afterwards, especially given the small field and that the aqueduct is cheaper for us (if not us alone). The capital can work four mines + sheep + clams at size6 or higher for 18hpt at its peak, and we can prepare a 1-whip on an axe/spear for 29h overflow 10t ahead of time, 1-whip an aqueduct (need happy cap of 7+ but that'll be attained by the gold) for another ~30h OF, and chop the cap's remaining four forests for a 7t Hanging Gardens (not counting the 'duct, which will take 4t to prepare the OF correctly). T85 eta range (or should they be delayed further?), maybe we can even generate a GEng for our first GP -- just add an early forge (possibly requires MC before Calendar, but that's not a bad choice either) and forum (lol forum).
I think we could aim for having a library at Cumae by T75-80 or so, but I'm assuming there's no rush for a GSci (in PB37 I produced one far too early, T77 or so?); we have too many Classical tech targets (Maths, Curr, Cal, MetCast, IW, probably in this order?) and therefore too many cottages to work.
Libraries compete with markets for slider efficiency and these happen to be cheaper for us (15h margin over library, also as laughable as the forum's bonus might be, it's still non-zero), so I'd rather aim for the latter. Aiming for GMerch bulbs or trade missions could be interesting; GScis bulb mostly Astro-related techs (please not), an academy to which the same reasoning applies as with the library, or require us to avoid Maths (no thanks).
I considered whether that's a religion we're seeing in GNP, but holy city culture alone doesn't explain this number, and 21 + [0.4*21] = 29. I think that's a PRO team (possibly Magic Science) pursuing Pottery after Fishing, Wheel and Mining->BW (we're fifth in soldier count despite our two warriors and the average is a notch above our 18,000, so I'm assuming that most people have similar techs to us by now; Wheel is due T36 for us).
The players I thought most likely to pursue religions are s_t (more happiness for IMP), RFS-81 (grew tall early, so might be aiming for some sort of Oracle play, but quite uncertain), and M.Sci. (duh, but starting with Myst is the reason why he can delay religion and rather work towards earlier granaries). Unlikely zealots: superdeath is AGG/CHM, so what does he need some culture or +1 happiness for; Charriu doesn't want to invite aggression again and aims to reach Machinery as early as possible, thus ignores religion (pure conjecture).
"oh btw" the last turn saw superdeath also settle #2, and s_t gained a score increase on the turn roll which I'm not sure about (could be tech or settlement). In either case, this means the animal era is over. Charriu didn't settle last turn, nor has he revolted to Slavery yet. Currently we rank as top MFG (14 to rival best 11) and tie with at least two others for top CY (19), but that's largely because we have a size4 capital and nobody else does.
I fiddled around with the micro some more; we can settle Neapolis (#4) on T51 or 52, rather than T54, and the pigs at Cumae don't really need that road (can use the chance to road ivory instead). It's also possible to get a granary at the capital earlier, which will allow us to grow from size3 to 6 within 6t down the line so I do think we should aim for this, that's an extra 1-whip for development.
Our westernmost warrior is adjacent to a lion while on a hill; if he doesn't get eaten, he can scout the western deer site next turn.
Please no more bears. I think the western lion was deleted on the interturn btw, no combat occurred but it's nowhere to be seen either. That deer site remains barely notable, will move 7 next turn.
Considering to place city #4 as marked, which shares sheep (a 4f tile, what luxury), but 1E would require no first-build barracks (those are cheap and necessary anyway, though). Found a micro that allows for a settler 3-whip (with granary, of course) on T60 for a total of six cities around that point (#5 also settled that turn), but not sure if we can pay for that, or defend it effectively, though planting #6 at the gold would help on both counts. Will post details later but I'm overdue for sleep.
Might just be the last turn for a while that we're ahead in demographics -- going to whip barracks -> 1t worker (OF + chop) at Canoel, build worker -> settler at Rungholt. MSci got a tech (Pottery? top GNP went down so that's probably it)
Charriu will get graphs on us eot unless he revolts to Slavery (which is also why we're not getting graphs on him yet). RFS 2-whipped his cap. There's no impi or immortals yet.
Deer, banana and pig site can be worth considering. Pig can be shared instantly after ivory city gets access to flood plains.
It looks like that this map is about careful expansion and growth, but not rush at all. May be there are still some zones rich with resources but distanted from player capitals. Otherwise it will be boring mass-cottage build-up. Will have to tech Calendar just to get some food from bananas... Weird
Tomorrow I am heading on my vacation to Greece. Last time eveything was fine with internet there but I can disappear from time to times during the following 10 days.
Warrior just discovered a grass cow 888 of the western deer (excellent), which is also where the northern shoreline visibly bends to the SW. This might mean we border Persia (player #2), because we also border Charriu as player number #6 (in the west after all?) and are ourselves player number #1 on the login screen, and possibly in the 12 o'clock position of what might be a Donut (but I always suspect Donut). Rival Best soldiers is now 24,000 -- not going to push the western warrior much further.
Expansion and boredom warnings noted: let's go with five cities by T60, although maybe if #6 goes to the gold mine, it will not increase maintenance, but whipping off three cottages might be self-defeating here. Until T60, let's try and go PB5 Crapital on this (if with a happy cap of 6).
Ocean fish, sadistically placed such that deer/cow plants would invalidate it, to our west; stone to our east. Pyramids or Gardens? In the former case, I'd want to preserve five forests (225h post-Maths) instead of four at the capital: this decision has to be made before I play the next turn. Food still seems scarce enough, whereas we'll have a happy cap of 11 with forges and Calendar, that I'm not sure the Pyramids are actually worth it more than the Gardens timed to finish at completing Metal Casting, so as to 2-whip forges at every city (save capital which doesn't need chops). I want early forges and a focus on mines (when not riverside cottages) on this map... getting enough commerce to stay competitive isn't that difficult here.
Charriu settled city #2 last turn (Wind Raptor, which should be Wing Raptor but maybe he's going with a theme of mistranslations on top of it, which "Exdeath" arguably allows for: then his third city will surely be KARL BOSS and that would be glorious), but he's not in Slavery yet and took his EP spending off us at 44. Pity that we can't return the favour. I'll look at his graphs later.
Our warriors are marked by signs. I'm returning the western one to Canoel because I'm not feeling that adventurous (we'll scout further once our city in this area is established). The southern one is on a forest hill next to a 1.4str bear (same one that killed our scout) and would have had 97.7% odds attacking into the bear, so I figured we might as well pick up the xp (but while not straying from the path; he's on a strict schedule). Not sure whether to explore further with the eastern one.
Desert gold city has food and has the forests to chop a barracks. Stone has a crab and possibly floodplains unless we plant on them (advantage of not needing barracks to profit from both resources at once, might be important to HG timing), but there's something else of interest in the area: a superdeath warrior on the "x" tile. Well, if we have to sit adjacent to Zulu, at least they're on our east -- the capital whipping off a plains mine for an axe isn't a big micro loss. The eastern deer has become less interesting -- hard to supply against impi. #5, #6, #7 will be fish/cow, gold/rice, stone/crab (order not fixed).
We'll connect copper on T44 at the latest; micro will have to be adjusted to get an axe sooner, and absolutely to ensure his warrior spots roaded copper, or a worker roading it at least. I want to do what I can to dissuade him from overestimating his position, because
(PB38 spoiler)
from looking at his PB38 reports, that seems to be his characteristic mistake, which can result in "barbarian" behaviour (e.g. thinking that a 20-chariot stack should move into the fog against a player who has HA and catapults, and the dog soldier "bragging" movement that TBS noticed). He's also admirably tenacious ("44 CHM/PRO totem pole archers", enough said). Doesn't just apply to war, either.
I think we should not finish more than one unit yet, though -- we need to retain the flexibility to react to both pure impi and impi/chariot ministacks (to a size of ~4 total units). Impi/axe is too slow to matter before we lock actual borders. Pure chariot is insane at this stage.
Usually, I would have seen moving our eastern warrior onto the floodplains (which blocks the most direct approach to our capital, ensuring that we'll have 2 warriors there -- including the one now next to Canoel -- before he can threaten anything) as an illegal double-move, since I was the one to roll the turn; but superdeath was the one to roll the last turn and moved his warrior twice before us in the first place. The resulting positions without any double-moves would have ended up the same: we would have moved our warrior to the hill 1E of the "w" sign in the east, spotting nothing, then superdeath spots us when he steps onto the x-marked hill, ends turn, and obviously cannot double-move onto the floodplains. So we should be clear.
Edit: But I didn't actually declare war. Lol. I want to, but I want to make sure that lurkers agree on the issue. If not, we can save the time cost of reload this way, because without war, nothing stops s-death from stepping onto the floodplains anyway.
Obviously assigned our EP to superdeath. Forgot to screenshot graphs on Charrison -- will edit in a few minutes later today.
Inexplicably, superdeath's naming scheme appears to consist of Turkish cities. Both of our contacts have size3 capitals.
I've reflected some more on the double-move situation. I think I'm justified in declaring, and here is why:
* On the start of T36, our warrior is 1 tile west of the "w" sign. His is on either the plains or the plains forest north-east of the deer. The critical flood plains tile is equidistant for us.
* I log in and play T36, moving the warrior onto the signed tile.
* superdeath logs in and plays T36, moving the warrior onto either hill north of the deer. Then he immediately plays T37, moving the warrior onto the hill.
* I log in and play T37, moving the warrior onto the hill 1E of the "w" sign, spotting superdeath's warrior. Then I immediately play T38, moving the warrior onto the floodplains.
If superdeath did not double-move on T36-37:
* I move our warrior onto the 1E-of-"w" hill T37, seeing nothing.
* superdeath moves his warrior onto his hill, making contact. Now he's in our situation instead: can he play before us T38, move onto the fp and declare?
My argument is as follows: If it were illegal for him to double-move onto the floodplains in this case, because our warrior would have been visibly 1t away, which would allow us to move to the fp and declare (taking first half), then it should have been illegal for him to double-move on T36-37 in the first place if that would make our move illegal, since double moves should not reward anyone. Therefore neither of our double moves is illegal. All clear?
That's why I'm now going to log in, declare, and take first half of the timer. If anyone thinks this is unsporting, let me know: I'll offer superdeath a cease fire (in addition to the peace treaty) before he plays, so he can accept it and nothing changes for him. In fact, he gets a slight advantage because our warrior is now on the wrong tile.
Edit: PM'd superdeath about this. Here's the text for transparency, just in case -- it should just repeat the above argument without terrain spoilers.
Quote:Hi superdeath,
You're the other involved party in the double-move issue I mentioned in the pb40 tech thread. Here's the situation:
1) I played T36 first to move a warrior onto a tile that isn't within your current line of sight
2) you played T36 last, then T37 first to legally double-move your warrior onto the hill it currently occupies (no complaints; you couldn't know about our unit)
3) I played T37 last, and spotted your warrior by moving onto the hill W-SW of its current position that your warrior sees. I then double-moved you: I played T38 first, moved our warrior onto the floodplain, and declared war.
You have the second half of the timer and will log in to a peace treaty offer.
Had you not (legally) double-moved us during T36-37, this would have occurred:
1) same
2) you play T36 after us and log out
3) I play T37 first, moving onto the same hill W-SW of yours as before, not spotting your warrior
4) you play T37 last, moving your warrior into its current position, spotting our warrior, and end turn. Thus if you don't double-move, you're in our exact situation instead. Here's my argument:
Obvious truth: in that situation, either it's legal or illegal for you to play T38 first, move onto the floodplain and declare war. If it's legal, there's no issue with us doing the same. If it's illegal, then we would play first, moving onto the floodplain and declaring war on T38. But that's exactly what I did in the game. My stance is thus that your double-move should not be allowed to change the legality of our move by itself.
If you disagree, please raise the issue before playing your turn. I think we can resolve this without a reload in that case.
-- actually, that might not be the worst idea, since Writing is blank for a while, we don't get a good payoff from non-discounted libraries this early, and a galley could make for a useful explorer (produce it at Antium after settler). We need Sailing sooner or later anyway because Calendar is a key tech here for +2 happiness.
