(March 19th, 2013, 15:07)pindicator Wrote: Bigger, there's more to it than just that he was able to take a FIN civ's cties. That said, FIN as #1 just tells me Commodore hasn't had to play as FIN yet. I'd rank SPI and ORG at the top - haven't got enough look at PRO to tell if it belongs up there as well. But i do think the rest are close enough to need no major changes, except AGG.
I know that, just a little hyperbole to prove a point . Putting FIN ahead of spi or org is just silly. I'd put FIN near the bottom, tbh. I guess it would be good on a map that has almost no rivers... but those maps suck anyway, who wants to play that
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
Yeah, the river nerf was pretty big because even as FIN the first tiles you want to improve are still going to be by rivers. Riverside cottage is still better than FIN non-riverside. But with lots of coast FIN can still give a decent boon.
Still, it may need half-priced markets to make up for the river-nerf
I think IND and PHI are fine where they are - not overpowered by any means, but not underpowered either.
Aggressive is without a doubt significantly weaker than the other traits, though better than it was in un-modded BTS, except as Aggressive Rome. A small boost keeping with the the theme might be to give it free Drill I on archer units, now that Protective no longer does that. Honestly, Aggresive is the only really weak trait, in my opinion. Still weak, but I'm not sure how to make it better without making it silly.
EXP, ORG, and FIN are hugely map-dependent to me, with ORG being the best of the three. All are boosted by the presence of saltwater, and ORG is reasonably tied to the map difficulty. I don't rate EXP as badly as some other people here do (except on an all-land map), but I also have no RB-mod experience with it. On a Prince/Toridal map with about the same amount of coastline as the average Big & Small, I'd consider RB-mod Exp to actually be pretty good, in the class right behind ORG. In most situations, ORG is probably the best overall trait; it was a pretty good trait even before adding cheap libraries. In fact, the very second thing that I thought when I saw the RB mod changes for the first time, after "Huh, I'm liking this change to PRO," was "ORG is probably overpowered in most situations."
I think that with cheap observatories, CRE becomes a top-tier trait again, especially in a map where astronomy is not a huge tech detour. I didn't love it without cheap libraries, but I still thought that it was pretty good, and while cheap observatories are nowhere near as strong as cheap libraries, they are a boost.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(March 19th, 2013, 14:32)pindicator Wrote: Do we want every trait to have an early and later benefit?
If so then give CRE and EXP those suggested additions and IND may need some kind of late-game boost. If not and we instead rely on the player to mix and match based on what part of the game then we should add the missing combinations of traits as new leaders
It makes it easier to consider balance if you consider the game as a series of stages, and early/late is just the first simple step of that evaluation that leads to Sevens' 20 turn profit analysis (that I don't think is 100% effective but is better than most measurements I've seen). That doesn't mean every trait has to be useful at every stage of the game though.
(March 19th, 2013, 14:19)SevenSpirits Wrote: ORG: -50% civic upkeep, +100% production of Lighthouse, Court house, Factory and Library.
235
I'm just going to halve your opinion of ORG down to 117 and say it's a bit playstyle dependent.
While I agree that 235 seems a little high, 117 seems far too low for most maps.
Quote:
Quote:AGG: Free C1 promotion on melee and gunpowder units, +100% production of Barracks, Drydock
75
So basically throw cheap stables, airports and castles at AGG and it might actually be viable?
That could work.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(March 19th, 2013, 14:19)SevenSpirits Wrote: ORG: -50% civic upkeep, +100% production of Lighthouse, Court house, Factory and Library.
235
I'm just going to halve your opinion of ORG down to 117 and say it's a bit playstyle dependent.
Details of my number:
110 from civic upkeep reduction
30 from courthouse discount
14 from lighthouse discount
4 from factory discount
60 stolen from CRE (library discount)
17 extra from having the library discount on a leader that doesn't get free culture
The courthouse and lighthouse numbers are assuming a cylindrical map without too much coast. It's possible I'm overestimating the library benefit. There's no way you can get down to 117 though, that's just hyperbole. The civic upkeep reduction has a pretty clear value.
Quote:
Quote:EXP: +35% production of workers and work boats, +100% production of Grocer, Aqueducts and Harbour.
88
Can you remember what EXP was like when it had +50% worker production in Warlords?
No - I played a few games with Warlords but I was really clueless then.
Yeah, let me back off slightly...Fin is top in a primarily water map, although a very wet lakes-map like PB9 I'd still rate them top. Seriously, old Civ1/2 made me pay -Chm for the Fin trait. On a land-prime map, goes way down, but still...subpar? Cheap market is never warranted.
I think you're seeing the main difference between Seven and Krill on Org for one reason: Org is boring. Sure, number crunches make it sexiest 85% of the time, but...yawn. I like the additional border-pop option of a cheap library, fwiw.
Giving Agg free "the rest" is interesting, particularly the stables boost. I like it! (duh)
Comparing the duel outcome of someone with two extremely early traits like Cre/Pro vs. two very late traits like Fin/Ind doesn't seem particularly instructive.
Point about interestingness...I'd rate Darius as the best leader by far, but I'd be happier playing Monty of some abysmal civ like Persia over Darius of India any day. As it stands today, even.
If only you and me and dead people know hex, then only deaf people know hex.
Seven Wrote:The courthouse and lighthouse numbers are assuming a cylindrical map without too much coast. It's possible I'm overestimating the library benefit. There's no way you can get down to 117 though, that's just hyperbole. The civic upkeep reduction has a pretty clear value.
IOW about the numbers you've used to make those calculations, but yes, that was hyperbole. I do see ORG as one of the top few traits but map dependent and capable of not reaching full potential due to other players actions (as with a few other traits). I don't see it as over 50% better than FIN though, or double CHM.
Quote:No - I played a few games with Warlords but I was really clueless then.
That was one of my worse ideas, but EXP in warlords was the strongest trait in the game. The cheap workers broke so many games, teamers, FFA, ancient era and late era starts it was unreal.
Commodore Wrote:I think you're seeing the main difference between Seven and Krill on Org for one reason: Org is boring. Sure, number crunches make it sexiest 85% of the time, but...yawn. I like the additional border-pop option of a cheap library, fwiw.
Comparing the duel outcome of someone with two extremely early traits like Cre/Pro vs. two very late traits like Fin/Ind doesn't seem particularly instructive.
I think it is always worth considering trait synergy because being forced into early warfare has a habit of occurring in our games. A lot of the times people look at leaders and think "that leader should do great" and then they are not able to reach that late game potential. That doesn't mean PRO is better than ORG, just that ORGs value has to include the potential of not reaching that late game which should weaken it slightly.
. Putting FIN ahead of spi or org is just silly. I'd put FIN near the bottom, tbh. I guess it would be good on a map that has almost no rivers... but those maps suck anyway, who wants to play that 
