Do they know that we know that they know that we know that they know ...?

[pling]

News of the turn is that Pirates built a Quechua.

Thanks for the graphs, plako, I'm going through them matching them with demos numbers (where I can, not always possible it seems). Of note is that TEAM have the GNP of 29.

[pling]

Thoughts from a first look at TEAM's graphs - I was right that they are the ones that have been dicking about with tile and/or tech selection, changing it after their turn rolled to something they weren't working. Given Krill's expressed opinion elsewhere (that C&D "should be banned"), and that it's mostly done things like show a lower GNP on the demos than they actually had, then I'm assuming it was expressly for the purpose of fucking with the other team's heads However, I haven't run into anything yet where knowing "the truth" has made me change my mind about stuff I've previously said - I still feel pretty confident I figured out their techs & soldier counts, because we did those checks back when 2 of their warriors showed up, and those're the important things.

Edit: Actually, there is a conundrum - they had a GNP of 24 while finishing off AH, previously I thought this couldn't be them coz it would mean they had to have met 2 civs that knew AH and the two I have down as having AH in the right time-frame are Gillette & Pirates, but Gillette iirc said they hadn't met TEAM before the incident of the dead scout. So there's a mistaken assumption in that (dreadfully phrased) sentence.

[novice]

Now that we have visibility on TEAM's capital we should track the number of hammers invested in the city. When I was logged in on Gillette's turn, they had 0 hammers invested, so they just completed something. If power is unchanged I would guess they built a worker.

[pling]

Good idea

Um, how does one discover that?

[plako]

Sabotage production costs + something else. What was that something else?

[novice]

http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5160

[pling]

Thanks

I guess if the turnplayer can get me SabotageCost and CityRevoltCost each turn then I'll have the spreadsheet do the maths (I'd do it myself, but I can't guarantee I'll always get into the game at the right point each round of turns.)

(picking CityRevoltCost coz as I understand that post it's always non-zero)

[pling]

OK, this turn was a little complicated to figure out, but looking at the demos from after TEAM played next turn as well I think I have an idea (I'm going to log into the game later today to look at the graphs).

Pirates got a tech, and I believe this was The Wheel. The alternative is that they got a 2k tech, which would have to be Hunting, and TEAM built a Warrior at the same time. I can disambiguate this with TEAM's graphs and I need to do so because if Pirates got all the power on T37 then I think TEAM may've chopped out an Axe on Turn 38. That would be a 6k power rise, and it's one way to make the numbers fit. I don't know if it's actually possible - if there's been enough time for them to hook up copper and chop*, but paranoia seems a good plan.

Alternatively Menagerie built a Chariot T38 & TEAM built a Warrior, which would be much nicer for us. Don't think I can tell till I can see the graphs after the start of TEAM's T39 (when the graphs update still does my head in).

Edit: And another alternative - TEAM researched Archery, coz they do get a tech as well on T38 and Archery is 6k. That feels implausible to me, any thoughts?

Does hammer overflow show up when one tracks hammers invested in a city, btw?


---

*is an axe possible? here's my working: Settled their new city T35, and only gained 3 tiles of land with it. My guess is that they settled for a close copper (like our SE copper), with the city in or next to the 3rd ring of the capital. They've known about placing of copper since EOT32, so if they have 2 workers, I guess they could've put them on the copper, pre-city placement, mined copper by EOT36 (settle first, then start improving), roaded by EOT37, over-flowed something into an axe on T38 (need 5 hammers) & chopped something pre-chopped? Seems a stretch but do-able?

Anyone any thoughts?

[plako]

Would it be possible that TEAM built Chariot? Axe don't make much sense to me. It would take ages to get to frontlines.

[pling]

[strike]I don't think so.[/strike]

On T37 power is as follows:

28k - Menagerie
24 or 26k - TEAM (probly 24)
23 or 21k - Pirates (probly 23)
15k - Gillette

After TEAM & Menagerie have played T38 the top power has risen to 32k and the inner two have also gone up 2k in total. So one way to achieve that is:

32k - TEAM (+6)
28k - Menagerie
23k - Pirates
15k - Gillette

OR:

32k - Menagerie (+4)
26k - TEAM (+2)
23k - Pirates
15k - Gillette

but if TEAM got 4k then they'd be at 30k, and we'd still need to get someone to 32k with only another 6k to play with.

Ah, but typing this out has made me see a way that would work out. TEAM have two cities (d'oh) so they could have built 1 Warrior and 1 Chariot for their 6k.

That sounds more plausible, I guess? A Chariot being more useful for them than an Axe.