[SPOILER] Ikhanbod

[Ichabod]

Turn 49 started with my civ unhappy for the first time. Since the city that put me in unhappiness was my third city, no harm was done, as T-Hawk said before. Since, my WB was ready on turn 49, my civ managed to get happy again on that same turn, with no loss.




After the WB, Harmonica started a library, due in 5 turns, with the city averaging 10 hammers per turn. There's an important thing to notice about my production values. I'm constantly using the "free" production you get when you grow a size in a city. So my production values are always higher than what is shown in the demos. The mined gem tile, for example, was used by Sentenza when it grew at eot 49 and by Harmonica when it grew on turn 50. That's 6 prod and 6 gold for free, with no food cost.




Turn 50 greeted me with awesome news. Jerusalem wants Silver connected in my empire! That's awesome, because it means a free alliance with a CS when I need it the most (right around the time when I plan to attack someone). I can connect Silver when I want, since I have a source in my third city. I'll have 10 influence with Jerusalem in 3 turns, due to the pledge to protect option. With the barb camp, I'll reach 60, getting ally status for a turn. After that, I think connecting Silver will give me at least 30 influence, giving me quite some turns with ally status (getting dyes + 4 horses + free faith). After that, I can probably just buy it for 250 gold, if I need the happiness.




I'm trying to get rid of the CS mission barb camp. I need to wait for Jerusalem to reach 10 influence, so there's no hurry. I'm killing an archer that's near the camp while I wait (there's another archer that moved into range after I ended turn 50). Notice the scout promotion on my archer, which is really useful to have when you fight on hills. Next turn I'll kill the archer with my archer, since it only needs 2 xp to get another promotion. After that, I think I can safely kill the barb camp without giving Azza a chance to snipe it.







Notice that i'm buying the horse tile to the northeast. Also notice that the WLTKD of this city is tied to Gold. I'll wait a bit to fire it (I could trade gems for gold with Pindicator soon), since I'm not planning on running a food surplus in this city for now. I think I can wait until I capture Pindicator's capital to get it, I guess I'll be running more food by then.




Demographics:




Overview before ending turn:




I need to think if I'm going to settle a fourth city before making any military actions. I'd probably get the settler from my third city, since I don't want to lose stable hammers with other stuff. I guess I could do it after the granary there, when the city is size 4 or 5. The capital and second city will give me enough units in that time frame to deter any thoughts of attacking me by Azza.

By the way, Horsemen -> Knight upgrade only costs 100 gold IF things don't change in quick speed. It could go down to 70 gold if things change. Well, I'll have a horde of Keshiks pretty fast after Chivalry, if I start keeping my gold right now.

[NobleHelium]

I like how it says "generate" a Great Admiral.

Civ 5 Fourth Wall

[Ichabod]

I played three turns since the last update. Turn pace wasn't that hot. Anyway.

Azza and Pindicator founded new cities. There was a bit of good news and a bit of bad news regarding this. Bad news is that Azza took the Salt I intended to settle with my 4th city, gaining the monopoly on the Salt trade. As long as I'm trading with him, that's not a big problem and I think I'll take that city for me when we stop trading . Notice that it's a very crappy city, with no new happy resources or river. This means Azza's settling option were probably not that hot.




Pindicator city is the piece of good news. That's exactly where I wanted a city, so I'll just take it from Pindicator and spare the settler (though I'll need a Courthouse). I had it being settled a little bit SE, but the place Pindicator chose is better, I think. It has a new happy resource too.




On foreign news, the big happening was Azza declaring on Pindicator again. That's good news for me. First, they won't be attacking me when I'm most vulnerable. Second, they'll wear each others armies. Third, even if Azza takes Pindi Capital, he can't raze it and it'll just make the city easier to take later. Though I doubt Azza will take that city. His army isn't much bigger from what it was on the previous war and Pindicator is a bit stronger. The big advantage my attack will have compared to Azza is that my ranged units can attack and run away from defensive fire after it. Ranged units die like flies to cities, from my experience, so you don't want them to be attacked. Pindicator's Capital has very defensive terrain from Azza's closest attacking direction (I got a Embassy in Pindi's Capital).

Serdoa keeps on going with the Wonders, building the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus. Pindicator got Stonehenge on his Capital, which is turning out to be quite a prize.







In domestic news, I managed to clear the City State mission barb camp, after some careful planning. I waited until Jerusalem reached 10 influence from pledge to protect and got both Jerusalem and Venice to allied state. It'll only last a turn, but it already helps (Harmonica will grow one turn faster because of this). Jerusalem will become allied for longer after I hook up Silver. The happiness also help with the Golden Age counter, which I intend to fulfill after I (and if I) get Chichen Itza.







My workers are getting ready to make the Chichen Itza plan work. The key tiles to be improved are the mines, which I think I'll have in time. The hill farms aren't that important, because I'm production constrained, not food constrained. So I just need the hills cleared for the 2 production, I don't exactly need the 2 food from the farms. My worker near Blondie will take care of one of the mines, while two workers will go for the gems and farms after finishing a road between Harmonica and Sentenza.







Regarding Chichen Itza, I'm confident I can beat Azza to it. I'm already teching Currency, the last prereq tech to Civil Service, while no one has HR and Currency besides me yet (so, no one has at least 2 CS prereqs). My tech rate also improved a lot, because I just finished Harmonica's Library (from 19 to 26 science, which will become 28 next turn). Problem is, I don't think I can beat Serdoa, if he really wants Chichen Itza. He can rush it with a GEng and he can reach CS quick, from what I can gather. What makes me a bit more confident is that Civil Service won't be a key tech to Serdoa, since his capital doesn't have a river, nor farms. Besides, from what I can see from his happiness, there's a chance he already got the first Happiness GA, which would make CI not that valuable. I think Serdoa will go to the bottom of the tech tree, trying for The Great Wall (which would really own me if I attack him) or Notre Dame, and getting Workshops avaiable. This is what I hope, at least. I really want CI.

Speaking of GAs, Azza fired one on the past turns, probably from the Representation Social Policy. I was scared when I saw his GNP and production numbers, before I realized it was a GA.

---

If I settle a fourth city, it'll likely go on the tile NE of the horses. It'll be a science city, since it can have a bunch of fresh water farms for 4 food each. Besides, it has some jungle for university's bonus. It'll probably go Granary/Watermill (not sure which is better to get first) -> Library -> University, very slowly. It doesn't have any new happy resource, but I can use a Khan to steal Salt from Azza or Sugar from Venice, if I so desire.




Harmonica getting 3 food from Venice and growin pretty fast.




Overview. The wheat tile already has 1 turn on a road, so it'll be ready next turn, decresing the useless maintenance from the roads with no-TR ready.

[T-hawk]

I waited until Jerusalem reached 10 influence from pledge to protect and got both Jerusalem and Venice to allied state. It'll only last a turn, but it already helps (Harmonica will grow one turn faster because of this).

This doesn't work the way you think. The alliance lasts for zero turns, not one. The influence goes to 60, but then decrements to 59 on the city-state's turn, which happens after the last player ends turn and before your next production phase. So you will not get any maritime food in cities besides the capital; and Jerusalem will only provide 2 faith not 4 that turn; and you will not get possession of their resources long enough for any WLTKD.

[Ichabod]

I waited until Jerusalem reached 10 influence from pledge to protect and got both Jerusalem and Venice to allied state. It'll only last a turn, but it already helps (Harmonica will grow one turn faster because of this).

This doesn't work the way you think. The alliance lasts for zero turns, not one. The influence goes to 60, but then decrements to 59 on the city-state's turn, which happens after the last player ends turn and before your next production phase. So you will not get any maritime food in cities besides the capital; and Jerusalem will only provide 2 faith not 4 that turn; and you will not get possession of their resources long enough for any WLTKD.

The order in which things happen in Civ 5 is completely messed up. It constantly doesn't give what the interface shows (for better or worst). It's really annoying...

I wonder why they made it like that...

[T-hawk]

Civ has always had this problem, that intervening actions can screw up your next production phase. Ever since Civ 1. Even Civ 4 behaved this way at first. It was only in one of the Warlords patches that the city production phase was moved from the overall turn roll to right after each player ends their turn.

Doing it the right way is not intuitive. Every programmer would naturally implement the turn sequence by first doing all the processing logic and then the player moves units. Even outside of a computer setting, most wargames going back to Risk have the logic in that sequence too, production at the start of each player's turn. It takes a lot of effort and tweaking to make everything act in intuitive orders, and of course we know Civ 5 never had that degree of polish.

[Ichabod]

Civ has always had this problem, that intervening actions can screw up your next production phase. Ever since Civ 1. Even Civ 4 behaved this way at first. It was only in one of the Warlords patches that the city production phase was moved from the overall turn roll to right after each player ends their turn.

Doing it the right way is not intuitive. Every programmer would naturally implement the turn sequence by first doing all the processing logic and then the player moves units. Even outside of a computer setting, most wargames going back to Risk have the logic in that sequence too, production at the start of each player's turn. It takes a lot of effort and tweaking to make everything act in intuitive orders, and of course we know Civ 5 never had that degree of polish.

Fair enough. I was really just thinking things intuitively (and based on what I see on Civ 4), didn't consider the programming point of view.

As an aside, do I get the science from the Library in the turn which it's built or only on the next one? Production factors before Science, I guess that's my question, in other words.

[T-hawk]

The library produces science on the turn it is built, in Civ 5. It does not in Civ 4.

[Ichabod]

To clarify my post in the BNW thread a bit, I'll use this game as an example.

If you look at my situation in game (turn 55 on quick speed), I have 3 cities (one settler bought), 4 workers, 4 military units (3 archers - 2 built, 1 upgraded from scout; 1 starting warrior), 2 granaries, 1 watermill, 3 monuments (all of them free) and 1 library. And, well, that's pretty much what I produced in the whole game. Just take away all the free stuff to see how little it is.

As you can see from my reports, I have made no investment whatsoever in culture (other than the oportunity cost of choosing a different social policy path - all culture I received so far was free) or religion (only received a bit for free from a CS). I made no investment in GPPs. I made almost no investment in military. Most of my investment was on growth and happiness, but I only have 3 cities and 4 workers (and 0 happiness left). There's a bunch of buildings that I could build, but I can't, due to lack of production. I think I have a total of 10 improvements in my land (and that's with a heavy investment in workers). And that's because I'm lucky and got a good start (look at Azza and Serdoa that were losing money per turn due to maintenance from units and buildings - and rest assured they don't have a lot of them), otherwise I'd have even more constraints.

Now, let's think that there's yet another "currency" to be factored in here, which is tourism. From where am I going to take the resources to invest in Tourism, if I can't even invest in culture, religion and military?

It's not surprising that they are adding a whole bunch of free stuff. Trade Routes are free. Espionage (from G&K) is free. World Congresses are free. Ideologies are free too, apparently (I don't know how you invest into Ideologies to get new ones - maybe gaining Tourism), other than the random 3 factories thing (wouldn't it make more sense to add a "Industrial Revolution" tech, if that's what they are going for? - maybe with a free factory at Capital as a first to bonus). Otherwise, all this features wouldn't be possible to experience in the game.

Yeah, of course, Civ5 is a SP game, not a MP game. Abusing the stupid AI seems to be a core mechanic of the gameplay, because I really don't see how to do things faster than I'm doing (to have the possibility of investing in more things). I have no happiness to settle more cities, I have no spare hammers. I guess what I'm missing is the AI free gold to buy me more things (workers would definetely be nice, settlers too - I could grab new happiness resources and improve my current ones). One has to ask himself why they don't work to fix this? Maybe give a whole bunch of gold for every extra happiness you have on the end of each turn. Then you don't need to sell it to the AI every 30 turns.

Instead of fixing this core gameplay problems (first and foremost the fact that you can't experience 50% of the game due to lack of resources - you can invest in 25% of the game and the other 25% you get for free), they just add more things. Look at me on this game, my gameplan is reaching a tech and getting a specific military unit. I'm massively beelining this and I'm not even close. I have no plans of getting things like Great People, Culture, Faith, other than to cross my fingers that some CS will give me a random quest that I can fulfill (this can vary from connecting a resource that you have on your borders to your trade network to getting a great admiral, when no one in the game has a single naval unit). But what do I know, I can play the game just fine without all these things, so I guess there's no problem, right?

Well, we always fall on comparisons with Civ 4, but I guess that's understandable. On Civ 4 you can focus your empire on a single thing (science, culture, military), but that doesn't make you completely oblivious to the other aspects of the game (usually by specializing things). And I feel like I always have an option or a way out when I'm playing a Civ 4 game, there's hardly any unwinnable position. On Civ 5, if you happen to start without different happiness resources near you, that's it. There's nothing you can do, absolutely nothing (maybe play an OCC, if the difficulty is low enough).

Anyway, I'm probably just repeating what has already been said a thousand times. I don't think Civ 5 is that bad of a game. It's definetely playable and you can have fun with it. But it feels like you can't do much of the things you were supposed to and the things you end up doing are the ones you've got for free. And since I think strategy games are all about decision making and investment management, it's a bad thing when you have nothing to invest with (while having loads of things to invest on) and there's hardly any decision that appears meaningful.

Or maybe all this is just because I suck at the game.

[MJW (ya that one)]

It is possible to expand and do stuff in Civ5. However, until the industrial era it is very slow. A great example, from T-hawk, is great people generation. In Civ4 you just make a pacifism city and dump specialists. In Civ5 you are stuck having to just a single specialist or two from the beginning of the game. When you hit the industrial era things pick up because the game allows stacked units (airplanes).

I know you can beat EMP. So you can expand and do stuff at a decent rate for Civ5 standards. You have to give yourself extra time to do things in an MP game because you cannot sell luxes.


Edit: I did not know that you posted this in the BNW thread--even though you said so in your post. Sorry.