Get Rich or Die Tryin': HidingKneel and Mardoc tackle the Khazad (Spoilers!)

[HidingKneel]

My reaction is about the same as yours! First reaction: we have to pay tribute for a site as close or closer to us than it is to him? We've got nice defensive bonuses, let him come.

Given that he ignored my suggestion of copper, he's likely to have bronze weapons of his own soon. Possibly even before we do. Now, he probably doesn't want to waste that adventurer going up the melee line. But if he comes knocking with a shock-2 promoted bronze warrior, it's not going to go well for us.

So I thought we should agree to the substance of what he proposes, but try to secure a little something for ourselves at the same time:

WarriorKnight,

I understand your misgivings. The land in question is uncomfortably close to us both. An unfortunate corollary of geography is that one of us was bound to claim it, and the other to be dissatisfied.

Now, I'm on your side, and would like to ensure that you are adequately compensated for your loss. But bear in mind, I need a proposal that I can sell to the board and stakeholders in the Khazad mining corporation. I think a one-for-zero deal will be hard for them to swallow, but perhaps they could be persuaded to accept a two-for-one. And your last message got me to thinking about a nice pair of cotton long-johns... well, that sounds downright comfortable!

Therefore I bring you the following counterproposal:

1) The two of us will sign a nonaggression pact (would you prefer forty turns or fifty? Your message said forty, but turn 89 is now almost fifty turns away. Either is fine.)

2) The Khazad agree to provide dyes as soon as they become available, and no later than turn 59.

3) In exchange, the Grigori agree that the Khazad will be preferred trading partners for their cotton. Meaning that you agree to trade cotton to us, as long as we can provide in exchange some other luxury good (in addition to the dyes) which the Grigori are lacking. At the moment, we can offer Gold (the resource, to answer your earlier question). In the not-too distant future, we should also have Ale and Ivory. Which of those, if any, are you in need of?

Now, it's possibly that the Kuriotates might want to offer you a sweet deal for that cotton. Maybe they'll offer two luxuries in exchange. You could feel free to take them up on that: so long as we get our cotton as well. If so, well, you'll be getting two luxuries from us and two from the Kuriotates, so you'll come out well ahead even if you have to make do without any long-johns of your own!

What say you?

Flintheart Glomgold, Founder and CFO of the Khazad Mining Corporation

We also got a message from TBS, which I haven't replied to yet:

Hail Flintheart,



Apologies for the late reply, I was awaiting the resolution of some events beyond my control before I could be certain that I could alter my plans to secure the dyes. Fortunately, it went well and they now seem assured.

Your suggestion of supplying us with weapons does hold some interest. We have been investing in other options for our defense but extra security is always a good thing. It will probably depend on the what deals are available from other parties though.

TBS.

Which makes me feel less bad about giving away our dyes.

I think we want cotton above wheat (IIRC that we don't have it ourselves); wheat might also be good post Dereptus, but it's less urgent.

We've got wheat:



What do you think of that city site? Should be able to grow up fast borrowing farms from The Money Bin, and working a wheat farm. Plains hill with some nice goodies in the second ring.

And we want Open Borders - I think you said this was likely to be an aristofarms game, so maybe you can get him to research Carto?

I'd rather not float that for the time being: he's more likely to be amenable to proposals that are cost-free to himself. But that raises another possibility: Sian is now just a stone's throw away. The elves are almost sure to research cartography (though we may have to wait until after their Fellowship of Leaves beeline). And the Kuriotates aren't the only ones who can grow giant cities. Of course, we might want to be wary of entering into mutually beneficial arrangements with a late-game powerhouse like the Ljosalfar. But things look pretty even at this point: it's hard to say who's going to be dangerous later on.

Finished RoK this turn running 30% science:



It landed in The Money Bin as expected. I haven't done the math, but I think the excess gold should see us through to bronze working, after which we should stop to build an event fund. We should get that at the end of turn 49 (eight turns of teching, one turn of revolt).

Speaking of the revolt, I think we can hold off on that for a couple of turns. The only benefit a state religion will give us right now is an increased happy cap, which we don't need until we have unhappy citizens. Finishing the settler in Duckburg before our revolt will get us city #4 a turn earlier.

Dwarven vaults: empty

[Mardoc]

We've got wheat:



What do you think of that city site? Should be able to grow up fast borrowing farms from The Money Bin, and working a wheat farm. Plains hill with some nice goodies in the second ring.

Eh...I'm not so sure, at least early. It really needs second ring to be worthwhile, and culture's still expensive for us. It also really needs Animal Husbandry, Bronze Working, Hunting, and Education, to have decent tiles to work. Or Code of Laws/Construction.

I'd prefer 1 S of that, myself. More riverside, the ability to mine that plains hill to work instead of settling on it (and Arete and Worldspell both improve mines even further), and the pigs are accessible earlier. At least I think we'll have Bronze before we have 40 excess hammers.

Speaking of the revolt, I think we can hold off on that for a couple of turns. The only benefit a state religion will give us right now is an increased happy cap, which we don't need until we have unhappy citizens. Finishing the settler in Duckburg before our revolt will get us city #4 a turn earlier.

Um. We can't use the happiness in Money Bin? If not, then I agree, but I thought MB had a fifth tile worth working .

[HidingKneel]

Got a reply from WK:

Flintheart,

Thank you for your understanding in this matter. The Grigori have considered your counterproposal, and I am pleased to announce that they accept it. They also fired their time keeper, since 40 turns from t39 is not t89 but t79, for that I send my apologies and indeed meant t79. As for the resource to trade for cotton, I believe the Gold resource would be the most desired item in exchange for cotton.

I will consider my options with the Kurio's appropriately regarding cotton. However it is something you don't need to concern yourself with.

Regards,
WK

Very good. Not the most favorable arrangement for us, but it does mean another boost to our happy cap, and that we won't have to worry about that border for a while.

Eh...I'm not so sure, at least early. It really needs second ring to be worthwhile, and culture's still expensive for us. It also really needs Animal Husbandry, Bronze Working, Hunting, and Education, to have decent tiles to work. Or Code of Laws/Construction.

Well, it's a ways off still. After the capital completes the current settler, I think we should grow vertically into our new caps, which should take a little while. (2 extra happy from Kilmorph, one from the dyes, one from WK's cotton. And that'll probably give us long enough to complete the Deruptus, which adds another one). I'm guessing city #6 doesn't get settled until the early sixties. At which point we'll definitely have animal husbandry and bronze working, with Code of Laws and Construction not far off.

But I take your point about 1S. Culture from the holy city means The Money Bin will have three rings of culture by then, but unfortunately the pigs will be outside of that. Anyway, we don't have to decide yet. Heading west from the Money Bin is also something we ought to consider.

Speaking of the revolt, I think we can hold off on that for a couple of turns. The only benefit a state religion will give us right now is an increased happy cap, which we don't need until we have unhappy citizens. Finishing the settler in Duckburg before our revolt will get us city #4 a turn earlier.

Um. We can't use the happiness in Money Bin? If not, then I agree, but I thought MB had a fifth tile worth working .

Spent the last few turns building another worker, so the food box is still nearly empty and will take three turns to fill.
I say we revolt on turn 43, while Duckburg's settler is on the move.

[Mardoc]

Well, it's a ways off still. After the capital completes the current settler, I think we should grow vertically into our new caps, which should take a little while. (2 extra happy from Kilmorph, one from the dyes, one from WK's cotton. And that'll probably give us long enough to complete the Deruptus, which adds another one). I'm guessing city #6 doesn't get settled until the early sixties. At which point we'll definitely have animal husbandry and bronze working, with Code of Laws and Construction not far off.

But I take your point about 1S. Culture from the holy city means The Money Bin will have three rings of culture by then, but unfortunately the pigs will be outside of that. Anyway, we don't have to decide yet. Heading west from the Money Bin is also something we ought to consider.

With the appropriate tech, it's a jewel of a city. So if that's the ETA for it, then I'm on board. Would be worth founding just for the resources, even if they didn't also give us nice tile yields. I still think I like 1S better than the hill, but we definitely want to claim this area.

I suppose I need to spend some time in game looking at our options and plans, before I have strong opinions . And we really ought to slip in some more exploration - perhaps we can aim to send out a pair of bronze warriors in different directions once we have Bronze?

Spent the last few turns building another worker, so the food box is still nearly empty and will take three turns to fill.
I say we revolt on turn 43, while Duckburg's settler is on the move.

Ok, makes sense. I haven't looked at the details enough to realize you were only talking a three turn delay.

Can we get the Gold/Cotton trade going ASAP?

[HidingKneel]

Turn 41 brings an eagerly awaited moment:



We're first to a religion!

Event log reveals that the barbarian warrior attacked between turns, netting Dewey another experience point.
That left the barbarian goblin undefended:



Used Dewey to kill it too. We're Ind, we'll have BW soon: that means we're well-positioned to make a play for Form of the Titan, if we can get ourselves a decent barb smasher.

Since we've got an NAP with WK, I figured Huey 2.0 isn't needed to guard our northern worker anymore. So I'm sending him on a little field trip to meet the Ljosalfar. Cross your fingers that a lizardman doesn't show up in the next two or three turns.

Barbarians weren't the only ones who were busy between turns. TBS fired his worldspell, resulting in this:



So, I guess we're not expanding much further in that direction! Room for one more city there, if the Kuriotates don't try to put down a settlement in the meanwhile. I figured this was a good moment to reply to his message:

TBS,

The Khazad Mining Corporation has heard great things about the Kuriotate empire: your recent exploits have generated a great deal of buzz. And it would seem that our borders are now quite close. Which is good for business, of course. But we must also ask: are we safe in assuming that you plan no further westward expansion?

As for the copper, we would be pleased to offer the finest in modern bronze weaponry. We expect to have that available quite soon, though it may take somewhat longer to establish a trade connection.

Of course, the arms trade is a sensitive business: we'd certainly require assurances that you're not planning on turning those weapons against us! And, of course, there's the matter of price. But I'm confident we can work out some mutually beneficial arrangement.

Now, when last we were talking about luxuries, TBS didn't mention Ivory. But he did mention Furs, so the absense of Ivory makes me think he doesn't have a source. In which case, he might be tempted to try to grab that Ivory with a settlement.
Well, if he mentions that in reply, I'll propose letting us settle the site and trade the Ivory to him, for furs or fine clothes.
Maybe with an offer of Bronze to sweeten the deal.

I suppose I need to spend some time in game looking at our options and plans, before I have strong opinions . And we really ought to slip in some more exploration - perhaps we can aim to send out a pair of bronze warriors in different directions once we have Bronze?

Well, I guess we don't need to go east now! It looks like our destiny lies west:



At least, until we start expanding that way and run into Calabim culture.
Anyway, there's still plenty of land to be had, and even being boxed in wouldn't be the end of the world (we're the Khazad, after all!)

Can we get the Gold/Cotton trade going ASAP?

That's what I'm hoping. Or rather "before turn 50". By my calculations, our first three cities will simultaneously exceed their new happy caps on turn 50. Unless we get access to cotton, in which case they can keep growing. In which case, by the time they've grown, we'll have dyes, and they can grow again. After which they'll have ale, and can grow again.

Missing out on cotton on turn 50 wouldn't be the end of the world, though. All that growing means that even dwarven workers will have trouble keeping up. So taking a short break to build workers isn't a bad idea (we'll definitely need another batch of workers before more settlers, anyway). But let's see what WarriorKnight can do:

WarriorKnight,

That is excellent news. We of the Khazad Mining Corporation hope that this sets the stage for further collaboration in the future.

So, how soon do you expect to have that cotton on offer? We should have our excess gold available next turn, though it may take a bit of time to build a road network between our empires.

I note that there a single point at which our territories are presently contiguous. Shall we endeavor to construct a road through there (and thereby avoid the dangers posed by any of the wild beasts roaming Erebus)?

On our side, we could have that road in place on turn 48. Do you think you could be ready by then? If so, we should be be able to get you those dyes by turn 55 (four turns earlier than promised).

And one other thing... just a little matter that the lawyers wanted to clarify (dwarven lawyers are the worst, let me tell you): our nonaggression pact will be in effect on turn 79, and not on turn 80? (Of course, we can discuss an extension when the time comes.)

We should start thinking about our tech path soon. I'm pretty set on the next few:

Bronze working -> Build Event Fund -> Animal Husbandry

After that, it's murkier. Here are some possibilities:

Festivals -> Drama: If we're not trying to build a carnival to bulb drama, I think Festivals isn't yet worth it on its own. No passive benefits, and we don't want to build markets while we're growing horizontally. But abandoning the carnival plan doesn't necessarily mean abandoning the drama bard. Another possibility is to hand-research drama. That's two very useful techs for the price of one. And if we're going to go for it, we want to go for it early.

Fishing: We'll want this by the time we settle the Heron Throne city, or not long after.

Masonry -> Construction: WarriorKnight wants our NAP to end on turn 79. It would be nice if we had some military toys at that point. Even if we don't want to invade him (which we probably won't be ready for, at that point), or if we're not worry about him invading us: it'll give us the upper hand when the time comes to renegotiate our deal. Also, masonry unlocks marble (for chasing wonders, like the Heron Throne), and Construction will let us start chain-farming.

Education -> Code of Laws: Aristocracy will let us really get this economy underway. Though Aristocracy will be a lot less painful to our growth if we get sanitation first. And I'm now liking the idea of maybe generating a great merchant to bulb currency when Code of Laws comes in, so we have another civic to swap.

Need to play around in the sandbox to get a sense of how the timing will work. Though the sandbox is starting to outlive its usefulness: I got the tech costs right, but maintenance costs are way off.

Dwarven vaults: empty

[Mardoc]

We're first to a religion!

Handy. Good to have the Holy City, and the happiness.

Used Dewey to kill it too. We're Ind, we'll have BW soon: that means we're well-positioned to make a play for Form of the Titan, if we can get ourselves a decent barb smasher.

Worth a try. Plus a well promoted warrior is a lot more effective against barbs than a bunch of semi promoted ones, so it's not like we lose much if someone beats us there.

Since we've got an NAP with WK, I figured Huey 2.0 isn't needed to guard our northern worker anymore. So I'm sending him on a little field trip to meet the Ljosalfar. Cross your fingers that a lizardman doesn't show up in the next two or three turns.

Makes sense. Contact can only help.

So, I guess we're not expanding much further in that direction! Room for one more city there, if the Kuriotates don't try to put down a settlement in the meanwhile. I figured this was a good moment to reply to his message:

How many cities does he have? If it's all three, then popping out settlements toward us is a lot more hostile than if he's still missing a megacity.

Well, if he mentions that in reply, I'll propose letting us settle the site and trade the Ivory to him, for furs or fine clothes.
Maybe with an offer of Bronze to sweeten the deal.

Hmm. I suppose that early, we do need to be cautious with him. He could really wreck us with Centaurs, if he wanted to.

Well, I guess we don't need to go east now! It looks like our destiny lies west:

Worth going south, too, perhaps.

Anyway, there's still plenty of land to be had, and even being boxed in wouldn't be the end of the world (we're the Khazad, after all!)

Yeah. But I really want to at least have more cities than the Kurios.

Um...I don't know the likelihood, but it may be worth floating an alliance with WK to divide up the Kurios. Not for a while, maybe around the era of next NAP signing. I expect to be more or less running out of land by then, Kurio fast start bonuses to be expiring, and TBS has not been particularly friendly so far. But we've spotted them to the southeast, their scout came, early, from the northeast - that suggests they're just plain east. Which would be a logical cooperation with the Grigori.

We should start thinking about our tech path soon. I'm pretty set on the next few:

Bronze working -> Build Event Fund -> Animal Husbandry

Can agree with that. Those are all things we can use right away.

After that, it's murkier. Here are some possibilities:

I'm not 100% sure what the state of our civ will be in ten turns or so when we get here. So...I'm going to phrase my advice as conditionals.

I'm also going to list them in order from least urgent to most urgent, according to my current view of the civ.

Horseback Riding: The difference between 1-move trebs and 2-move trebs is pretty big. But there's no point until we're ready to build them en masse, and we need to have an XP source lined up first. Still, don't forget we need to hit this eventually. Also we need to put down stables at some point for chariots. But again, not quite yet.

Warfare: For that shiny big statue you mentioned. Not until we're close to unlocking it, but keep it in the back of your mind.

Fishing

We want to save this to the last moment, or maybe a little longer. I believe the one coastal city is the *only* one that can benefit, so buying Fishing early just wastes the beakers. And even that city has decent land tiles to work.

Festivals -> Drama

I'm torn here. On the one hand, they're both useful techs, and you're right that the Drama bard is worth a fair bit as well, after Sanitation is unlocked. On the other hand...Festivals has *no* benefit that doesn't require hammer investment, and Drama is expensive. I don't really want to spend hammers on anything but settlers, workers, and military just yet. It seems land is a bit short, and we're well suited to REX.

I think I lean toward no on this one. It's just too expensive for the benefit right now. Sacrifice the Drama Bard, and come back once we have a real economy going, not just a resource economy.

Arete: Bonus hammers are nice. So are bonus GPP. A hero of our own would help people to stay away, and so would Paramanders. Enchanted weapons are good too.

But...it's not going to help a lot economically until we're past a city growth phase. Need to be working mines - and that contradicts city size doubling with happiness influx.

Hunting: Ivory at least. Also we want to have the ability to go to Hawks sooner or later. Not important until we've claimed a bunch of hunting resources, though.

Masonry -> Construction

A bonus you didn't mention - another prereq on Sanitation. High priority for chain irrigation, for Marble, for defense.

So far we're not short on riverside tiles, compared to our population. At least if I remember correctly, we're working pretty much only mines and resource tiles; even when we gain the four or so extra happiness in store we'll be pretty much fine. Important, but nothing we'll be using right away.

So I would put this as 'soon, but not urgent'.

Education -> Code of Laws

The best time to revolt to Aristocracy, in my book, is when the first 3-4 core cities are getting big and another wave of cities is about to be founded. I'm not sure, but it sure sounds like that's exactly where we'll be by the time we can get here. If I'm wrong about the timing, then I'd push toward Construction instead, but aim to get to CoL at that stage of growth - even if it means leaving construction half-researched.

On top, there are good civics at Edu, we may want a cottage or two, and Org courthouses are worthwhile earlier than non-Org. And...IIRC, after Dyes, we're out of really good commerce specials. At which point we need a more general econ tech.

So I like Edu -> CoL the best, and reevaluate as that gets close to finished. Most likely we'd want to push immediately for Masonry/Construction/Sanitation, but it's possible instead we want some of the odds and ends tech.

That'll really turbocharge our research, making the next few choices easier. Easier because we can have 'both!', rather than having to pick. And it'll make vaulting up a plausible option, too.

[HidingKneel]

Played around in the sandbox a bit. I think you are exactly right: Education -> Code of Laws should be the priority.
(Education's needed for Drama anyway, which I had forgotten).

In fact, I think that's much higher priority than animal husbandry. Animal husbandry lets us improve exactly three tiles: a cow by Brutengrad (already farmed over, so a pasture adds one foodhammer), a cow by Duckburg (which already has plenty of nice tiles to work), and the sheep by city #4 (which is awkwardly placed for worker efficiency anyway; better to farm the grasslands and mine the bronze first). And it gives some bonus health, but we're only going to hit the health cap in one city in the immediate future. I say it can wait.

New tech plan: Bronze working -> Education -> Code of Laws

If we don't stop to build an event fund, that gets us Code of Laws on turn 57. Maybe sooner; we'll probably get some known tech bonuses on education, at least.

After that, I'm still liking Festivals -> Drama. In the sandbox, we get drama on turn 65. Think that's soon enough to get us the bard?

Warriorknight got back to me. But gmail doesn't seem to be working, so rather than quoting I'll just give the gist:
he wants us to build two segments of the road rather than one (no problem, that's fair), and he won't be ready on the timetable I asked about. That's no problem: we can grow the capital two sizes (religion happiness), then build a worker, grow another two sizes while completing the Deruptus (dye and ale happiness), and then get started on a settler for the Heron Throne site. Worker micro works out a little better if we don't have to worry about having the gold connected quite yet, so I think we can delay the trade.

Played the turn. Completed a settler, got a border expansion:



We're at the top of the scoreboard again. As for the demos, we're solidly in the middle:



Huey's making his way north the Ljosalfar. We should make contact next turn.

Dwarven vaults: empty

[Mardoc]

'Exactly right'. Hah - if I had it exact, I'd have pushed for postponing AH. I don't want to put off AH too long, we also get, hopefully, horses. And it sounds like health will start to bite, and we may have more animals inside borders by then. But you're still right, the cost of delaying it isn't much just yet.

I'd say that timing is about 50-50 on the Bard - and only if no one Philosophical tries the double-bard trick. There's only, uh, two of those. Plus Calabim with no other good early GPP options. But I like going that way a lot more when it's post-aristo; not nearly as many turns lost if we fail. And we've got to go up to Drama anyway for reasonable culture - the only border pop option we have under 40 hammers - so it's not a waste.

So long as we can make it to Construction by T69 or so, to have our first Treb out by NAP-end, I'm fine with it.

[Mattimeo]

Do dwarves even need/use horses? I seem to recall dwarves using pigs instead.

[Mardoc]

Do dwarves even need/use horses? I seem to recall dwarves using pigs instead.

I think we use pigs for everything but chariots and tiles yields. Coincidentally, that's what we most want...