[SPOILERS] Margarita and the Lurkers

[Maga_R]

Need lurkers help with that:

Contact: Pre-Optics for all teams, capitals quite far from each other

How many tiles away between capitols do you think it means? Are we likely to be attacked in the era of archers and axes? Or to attack somebody in that era?

I am having these discussions with Jovan and he loves Native America, my impression is mostly for its UB, Totem Polem:

Samurai is OK unit, but it needs iron. Anyway, I think Native America is better, because one barracks and monument in some production center would help us to make 2-promo archers (city garrison 2), which can be placed in border cities. In the case of a surprise medieval attack, we could upgrade them to longbowmen or crossbowmen, and defend ourselves. The strengh of FIN can be well used in a defensive war.
I hope we'll get Dutch. When you can play tonight?

I know that whenever I have a different opinions on civ with Jovan, he would be right in 99.9% of the cases - but perhaps this is the 0.1% case he is not? . For a CRE leader, Totem Pole seems such a said building . Are we really gonna build any? Moreover, mysticism is not likely to be on our early tech path. Sure, starting techs are great, but they are exactly as good as Japan's, and Samurais seem much neater. The only think that makes me warm a bit towards Totem Pole is the presence of the Aggressive Rome on the map.

What do you lurkers think about Native America? I kinda think that except of great starting techs the main bonus could be everybody would think we are crazy . But wait, Native America have also Dog Soldiers - but their 100% vs melee bonus is lost during upgrades, right? Anyway, seems a much better reason to pick them than a Totem Pole, Dog Soldiers seem very cheap for such a powerful unit ...

[Maga_R]

Lord Parkin did it to us. Netherlands - gone.


And RB would not even allow me to express how saddened I am by that news:

   

[retep]

Yeah when the Dutch gone Native American is the next best thing.
Dog soldiers are perfect counters for aggressive Rome. Normally you only need one maybe two totem poles in the cities that you actually are going to be building units.

About the samurai, they have two things going against them. 1. They need iron. 2.By the time you can build then you are close to guilds, and knights are better than samurais.

[Maga_R]

Yeah when the Dutch gone Native American is the next best thing.
Dog soldiers are perfect counters for aggressive Rome. Normally you only need one maybe two totem poles in the cities that you actually are going to be building units.

About the samurai, they have two things going against them. 1. They need iron. 2.By the time you can build then you are close to guilds, and knights are better than samurais.

I initially never thought we have a chance to land Dutch with the 8th pick - but then we were so close that I began to be helpful.

I am not sure we should stick with fishing+agri civs now, once the Netherlands are gone. As I was discusing with Slaze and Jovan, there is much more to the civ choice than starting technologies. Fishing + agri would definitely give us the best start, but the only good civ with these techs was Dutch.
As I just wrote Jovan:

As we discussed earlier, fishing + agri are clearly best techs for this start, but there is only one really good civ with them, the Dutch. On the other hand, Ottomans are overall great - both UB and UU and starting with two most expensive techs, so I am now leaning towards them. Perhaps even Babylon? As CRE, we will get their UU - colloseum with +2 health - at half price. UU - archer with +50% vs melee - is not bad, either.What do you think?

[Maga_R]

Testing agri+wheel start now.

* we are ahead by 32 beakers vs agri+fish
* fishing researched by t6
* worker t15
* AH t19
* corn improved t20
* mining t26
* size 3, t28
* 1st settler, t36, but pre-roaded to a new city and 1st forest pre-roaded for chopping

so not that much worse with respect to fishing start. BW will be ready t38. Could have play it better for sure, will try again.

Starting techs: Agriculture, Fishing

Builds: Workboat (t8), Worker (t18), Warrior #1 (t28), warrior #2 (t31), Settler #1 (t37), worker 2 (t40)
Research (Animal Husbandry(t13), Mining(t19), Bronze Working (t31), The Wheel (t38)
Worker actions: Improves corn (t22), travels to cow (t23), improves cow (t27), 2t mining 1S of cow, chops settler
Capitols: size 2 (t23), size 3 (t26), size 4 (t29), size 5 (t32)

Research: Animal Husbandry(t13), The Wheel (t19), Mining (t31), Bronze Working (t39)

Builds: WB (t8), worker (t18), settler #1 (t35)

I did not have much time for testing lately, did just a bit. In my hands - and the keyword here is "in my hands" - agri + wheel is not that much worse tha agri+fish. It is actually extremely close - settler 1 turn earlier.

But let us better wait for more conclusive test results from Slaze .

---------------------------------------
EDIT: 1) fishing + agri start
a) researching mining first, settler t34, but did not manage to chop in time (BW t31)
b) wheel first, settler also t34
2) wheel + agri start: same techs at t26 as with fish+agri and wheel first, settler out at t36

[Maga_R]

Still thinking about other fishing civs: loving Viking's UU and we will for sure would like to build their UB at least in the capitol - and prolly soon. Greece also does not look bad, half-price +2happy UB for us, UU not that bad, either. Still not liking Native America that much ...

[Maga_R]

Also as Slaze pointed out, the similar discussion was held by Team Cavaleiros in one of MTDGs:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=300467

They played as Joa, they starting technologies were fishing and mining and they also had a fish and grain resource in their capitol's BFC. Through the vote, after the linked above discussion, they decided to go worker first and build the workboat second. The discussion seems complicated, my impression is that the argument to go worker first would be not to loose worker turns? In our case - choosing between fishing and no fishing starts - we only loose 3 worker turns by going fishing - but save two settlers turns plus some additional research. Cavaleiros were also not FIN, so coastal tiles were a bit less appealing to them.

Waiting for Slaze to test starting techs "conclusively" and to discuss with him and Jovan the merits of different UBs and UUs. I guess my current ranking would be:

1) Vikings (fishing+hunting): excellent UU, not bad UB
2) Carthage (fishing + mining): excellent UB (pity we did not get Pacal), good UU
3) Greece (fishing+hunting): good UB, not bad UU
4) Native America (fishing+agriculture): not bad, but early UU. UB gives XP to all archery units? (e.g. longbow, too?)
5) Ottomans (agri+wheel)?: generally excellent, but not optimal start for this map

EDIT: fishing + hunting start actually looks as good ad other starting combinations with fishing. Due to our situation - wanting to reasearch AH soon - hunting's 20% pre-requisite bonus for AH comes very handy. I catually get AH same t19 with fishing+hunting than with fishing+agri. Me likes Vikings even more now - just think about those amphibious maces, and later rifles . And on the top of this they are getting extra 10% city attack bonus - yummy! .

Anybody would like to share their experience with berserkers?

[Qgqqqqq]

Read pitboss 5, scooters thread.

[retep]

I don't have much time but just some things:
a)They were Exp
b)They have a plain hill to settle, wich is a huge boost
c)They were playing and standard not large map, so the techs cost were different
In their case worker first was okay, but your case is different. They could made a 10 turn worker, you cant.

If you have taken a Exp leader then things might be different but right now I don't see anything better Native American.

If you start fish/hunting you delayed BW too long, if you don't have horses close then you have no defense whatsoever.

[Maga_R]

alright, so Slaze did some simulations with fishing+agri start

Slaze: they both got setller same turn
Slaze: worker first was 308/236/589 (food/hammers/commerce)
Slaze: boat first 311/223/629
Slaze: worker wins in production 236 to 223 but the boat give 40 more commerce

and since work boat first scenario (the whole reason we considered fishing start) is not that much better than worker first, and since Dutch civ was taken and we all like Ottomans anyway, we will be playing as:

Willem van Oranje of Ottomans

wish us luck - I think we will need plenty of it .