Uncommonly Good: A Story of Elves

[NobleHelium]

You can't upgrade adventurers to disciples. Mage is not really worth it since they already get free experience, so all you get is Twincast and faster experience gain, and I don't see a big use for Twincast. Recon definitely looks like the obvious choice, since you won't be getting the better metals for melee anyway. I think your adventurer will be okay, there are no spiders in between (unless one spawns), and most unit spawns will be sitting on their spawn building for now. Plus he's got 2 strength, which has a decent chance of surviving against most animals on defensive terrain.

You could build another scout after the warrior and send him out to defog the route again, I don't think there's much to build anyway. Granaries are pretty weak.

[Mardoc]

You can't upgrade adventurers to disciples. Mage is not really worth it since they already get free experience, so all you get is Twincast and faster experience gain, and I don't see a big use for Twincast. Recon definitely looks like the obvious choice, since you won't be getting the better metals for melee anyway.

I agree that melee's probably not the best choice for our situation. I think I disagree on Mage, though. Here's why:

Mage might be worth it, if we're planning to research all the way to Sorcery in time for a war. I mean, heck, that's our Destroy Undead option right there. It's not just the faster experience gain that matters - it's the guaranteed XP gain. That means you can plan around what you will have, instead of what you might have. An adept only starts gaining XP when its built, after KoTE and a Mage Guild, while a hero starts now. For a non-charismatic, non-Arcane civ, it takes a long long time to get the XP for a Mage. I did the calculation in my PBEM 3 thread somewhere that I can't find at the moment, but I think it was on the order of 70 turns, expected value, to gain 10 XP. Which means at training date +70, assuming no XP civics, half our adepts will be ready to upgrade. Compare to 10 turns, guaranteed, for a Hero. We've got pretty good mana, too - Maelstrom, Poisoned Blade for Recon troops, and Destroy Undead, all of which would definitely help in a war against Sheaim. And maybe fire, for blazing jungles and Fireballs. And whatever we choose to turn our node into.

It's true that in the long run, a Hero isn't hugely better than an archmage. The difference is that a Hero is relevant in the short run. IF we research up the magic line fast enough, anyway. A Heroic adept isn't worth a heck of a lot more than a normal adept and would, in fact, be a waste. Hey, look, it's that tech debate again . That's the biggest reason in my book against going Mage, that it would cause us to warp our tech path yet again, to get Sorcery early for the benefit of one unit. Still, if any one unit can shift the course of a war, it's probably a mage or archmage.

So maybe after all the best approach is to upgrade him to the strongest unit class we'll have anyway; we could simply aim for a single strong Hunter - give him heroic strength and defense and all the combat promotions. But that's nearly the same role we'll get when we build Gilden Silveric.

[Gaspar]

Figured I should say something here, since I don't think we're going to see a turn today. I owe you guys a few replies to a variety of comments, not to mention the long-awaited barbs post (to be honest, I'm not really worried about Monarch level barbs all *that* much, which is probably why I haven't gotten around to posting it) those will come sometime in the near future.

On the adventurer, I continue my streak of getting at least one thing wrong about game mechanics every post. I think NH & Mardoc do a nice job of framing the debate on the Adventurer in such a way as to ensure I don't really have a lot to add. I agree with Mardoc that the power of a Mage/Archmage is not the question, but rather the timeliness of one. Given that the Pyre is very much a realistic possibility, a Sorcery rush could ensure Fireballing collateral for the potential Sheaim war. Maelstrom is also an option given our Air Mana, not to mention Destroy Undead. One could go KotE -> Alteration -> Sorcery and build a body node for Haste and we'd get faster moving troops as well. So one single early Mage could make a big difference.

That said, I don't think it wise to generate an entire tech path of one reasonably normal unit. A well promoted Axeman, Hunter, Ranger or otherwise could make a big difference in a Zombie war at T100, and it could do so without diverting us from our optimal economic tech path. I think that ultimately is the key to any potential anti-Sheaim action - its likely we're going to have to fight them, but any fighting we can do which keeps us on the path to many cottaged Ancient Forests running a bazillion specialists in the late game is the optimum choice. So we probably need to put together an "Options at T100" post sometime in the next couple of weeks. Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to actually manage a blitz anytime soon, so you're going to be stuck reading mundane turn reports for a good bit yet. I'd like to get us to the T40 or so range soon, where the game gets a lot more interesting. With the certain death of Chong, we're probably looking at 15 turns of essentially hitting enter before anything else interesting happens. Sorry, lurkers!

Bottom line, if I were guessing, Bahamet the Second will be a 6/4 C5 Hunter on T100, supporting my army of Tiger Priests. Or he'll be killed by a bear on the way home.

[Gaspar]

Rawkking stayed up late so we get the rare early morning turn. I'm not expecting much worth reporting here, but let's see. Rawkking and Kyan gained a pop point, no tech discoveries this turn. Has anyone managed to determine whether Brian has researched 2 + a hut tech or 2 hut techs and 1 researched. If its the latter, he's even luckier than me this game.

Speaking of luck...



Chong was indeed eaten by the spider. Peace, Chong, you were a true *pimp*

In other news, Bahamet Deuce is on his way back to the capital, he has not encountered any other baddies just yet. The Corn farm has completed at the capital, which is nice. We'll grow and complete a warrior next turn. My original inclination was to go for a 2nd worker next, but given our lack of things to have them do, I think I'll build a 2nd warrior first, then reassess. I could probably be talked into a scout if you really wanted to as well, so if you want to, do so.

Here's EOT demos. The corn farm + Ancient Forest combo has us in the lead for Crop Yield, so that's nice. The Chronic will only take 2T to size 3. Of course, there's no other interesting tiles to work. I'm going to have my (as yet unnamed) worker farm the mana node next. By the time we're ready to plow over it with a node of some sort, we won't need the farm. In the interim, might as well improve our worker/settler production. (The growth is pretty immaterial, even with the healthy early game happy cap of 6, there just won't be an interesting tiles to work until Education comes in.)

[Man Behind the Mask]

The scouts certainly like to die in a heroic sacrifice. Maybe you should build a couple more to suicide at enemy heroes at low odds.

I have nothing to add on the Adventurer debate, aside from my congratulations. There are some additional pros, cons and nuances that will all be immaterial if we can’t get him home. I’ll wait until he’s safely tucked up before wasting the bandwith on my brain’s lengthy back and forth.

There’s definitely no need for another worker until we’re completing Education or putting out a second city. Farming the other river grassland (for the commerce) after the mana node gives us four 3-food tiles, which is more than enough at the moment, and leaves plenty of time for busywork roading. I’d personally build another warrior to sit in the capital and guard against RNG disaster with a skeleton. A scout to head off west again would be nice, although I suspect the spawn points at the RoP site have baddies by now.

It would be good to get a shot of the capital with expanded borders, as I hope it’s revealed a little more of the south.

[Mardoc]

I don't have much to add today. Could possibly figure out Brian, except that I missed which turns he got his score increases for techs. That's the hard part of C&D for me, keeping track of all the details.

And yeah, I do see the other side of the Hero debate, that bending our whole civ for an early single Mage might not be the best option . Especially when we're non-Arcane, so we're unlikely to be able to use the techs for anything else in the near future.

[NobleHelium]

I agree with building a second warrior, but I think sending him off to meet the adventurer would be better than sitting in the capital. There are a lot of forests in that area and you will be able to move twice just like a scout, and obviously a warrior is more likely to survive.

[Gaspar]

I would definitely like to get 2 more explorers out soon enough, so I can determine 1. If Nicolae is as cramped as he suggests and 2. How much room we have in the west. I just sort of thing that sending a scout or a warrior out is probably just throwing good hammers after bad, since there's bound to be all sorts of animals (we've already seen a bear poking around in the north) not to mention the ruins/barrows around have most likely done their thing and spawned stuff. What I would really like to do is just get Hunting quickly, which basically eliminates the animal threat, and makes the barb threat mostly a draw, not to mention Hawks.

AC -> Education -> Mysticism -> AH -> Hunting

or

AC -> Mysticism -> Education -> AH -> Hunting?

Is it worth swapping Hunting and AH and settling the Ivory site first? And have we made a decision on Elder Council/God King vs Cottages?

Decisions, decisions.

[NobleHelium]

I'm going to say Education before Mysticism. God King increases gold, of which we're not really getting, so it'd mainly be for production to get the elder council out quicker. We already have a worker that can start cottaging. Plus, we have a total of three hammers (I think), so God King gives a 33% increase. We can cottage up some forest tiles, which will get us a 40-50% increase when we get Mysticism the tech after.

[Man Behind the Mask]

AC -> Education -> Mysticism -> AH -> Hunting

or

AC -> Mysticism -> Education -> AH -> Hunting?
<snip>
And have we made a decision on Elder Council/God King vs Cottages?

I’ve had quite a long look at the tech decision upthread, and I’m pretty confident that mysticism before education is the way to go if we’re going to get them back to back. Only issue I’ve not really considered is if you want to get a second city out very early (i.e. before Turn 40). I think that might be a bit tough, but it’s a possibility that is a complication.

Anyway, I’ll set out as best as I can the pros and cons of each option for our next tech (although of course pros of one and cons of the other tend to be interchangeable).
Mysticism First (followed immediately by Elder Council at max hammers and Sage specialist)
Pros: More raw beakers before Turn 50; increased hammer output from earlier God King; GPP from Sage leading to earlier Academy; opens up religions as a bonus tech we could pop (this one might be clutching at straws)
Cons: Cottage growth is about 8 turns behind Education first (i.e. each cottage put down immediately will grow 8 turns later); not very much for worker to do.

Education First
Pros: More raw beakers in the long term (each time cottage growth occurs, you get up to 16 more beakers because of the earlier growth, although this could be offset by delay in possible Academy); more for worker(s) to do, especially if we expand to a second city; can switch to Apprenticeship for warriors/scouts with promotion.
Cons: Less efficient to run Sage later with cottages to work; next tech on the list is finished later.

I think I’d go Mysticism first, swap to God King/Pacifism and build Elder Council, settler and workers until Education comes in, then go back to Nationhood/Apprenticeship to train defenders for two sites. BUT, it's your game.

Is it worth swapping Hunting and AH and settling the Ivory site first?

In terms of the tech after that, I think the bigger issue (and hence the decision) is where we want to settle that second city. The Ivory site gives us at least two resources (eventually) and the mana, but is more aggressive and has a limited number of tiles to work until we can cut back the jungle (but probably enough). Each of the backline sites would work well as a worker/settler pump once we’ve got the food resources improved (the big downside of pigs/corn is the skeleton barrow). The RoP site is probably a stretch.

It’s worth remembering that Hunting is over 2.5 times as expensive as Animal Husbandry.

And finally… for today’s crazy techpath-bending thought – we could go Mysticism first for the quicker Sage GP, use him to bulb Knowledge of the Ether, then blaze the jungles having settled the Ivory site first for the Pyre. As always in FFH, just because you can do it, doesn’t mean it’s definitely a good idea.