(September 15th, 2016, 23:56)Tohron Wrote: Are you sure Alhazard has been running Mercantilism all 20 of those turns though?
Are you suggesting a Spiritual civ would choose to run Decentralization over Mercantilism?
Well, it seems less mechanically ignorant than running Citizens. (With Mercantilism, someone who didn't run the calculations might get put off by no foreign trade routes, but Citizens are obviously inferior to working any tile or running any specialist)
Poor Alhazard. Fortunately for the game, RMOG have realized they've made some errors.
The Liberalism play might or might not be worth the trade-offs, but Alhazard definitely is aware of what he's trading off. Not that I plan to correct Tohron.
(September 16th, 2016, 13:19)Krill Wrote: Wait. I can barely read that thread so let me restate that to make sure I understand what you're saying.
Allhazard, playing Gandhi, is not in Merc? Is that statement correct?
I don't think it's correct. What's going on is this:
(August 15th, 2016, 12:06)ipecac Wrote: GP Pool
We need pure GP pools to generate the Scientists and Priest, so as far as possible we will avoid using engineer specialists (except maybe in city #2). Running citizens instead will be somewhat costly, but after all the plan is to go big or bust.
Overall plan:
(August 15th, 2016, 12:06)ipecac Wrote: We're still working out the micro details, but our strategy is along these lines:
Summary
We plan to expend 5 people to bulb 4 techs and lib a 5th tech in a beeline to Communism. Janissaries will cover our asses for this risky play (or so we hope).
Overview
We picked SPI/PHI of Ottomans for the sake of bulbing towards Communism for State Property and Kremlin, which is 'bulb-fast/snowball-hard/sink-or-swim', as DTG put it. Rough ETA should be T262 (75 turns in).
Requirements
The preceding techs needed are Education, Printing Press, Scientific Method AND (Astro OR Gunpowder&Chemistry.)
Plan
Great Scientists can bulb Education, PP, SM. Great Prophets can bulb Liberalism (once Education and PP are cleared). So we expend 1 Scientist each on Education and PP, 1 Priest to bulb Lib to grab Astro, then 2 Scientists on SM. We then manually research Communism.
Method
Cheap SPI temple for priest GPP; SPI/PHI synergy with Caste System + Pacifism.
Intermediate goal
The key target is Lib, with the current ETA being T236 (50 turns in). It is of course possible that we get beaten to it, but we're counting on the fact that it's unlikely for any team to sink 1k+ beakers over the first 30 turns to get it.
Other key aspects
GP Pool
We need pure GP pools to generate the Scientists and Priest, so as far as possible we will avoid using engineer specialists (except maybe in city #2). Running citizens instead will be somewhat costly, but after all the plan is to go big or bust.
Defense
This deep bulbing strategy places us at risk against a Knight/Cuirassier attack so Ottoman Janissaries with their bonus against Mounted units should cover us as we catch up on military tech after grabbing Communism.
Questions?
It's just that Scooter noticed Alhazard hasn't popped a Great Person yet, and non-Merc is the dedlurker theory as to why not.
Ok, got it, makes sense. It has a cost, but the main issue isn't usage of specs but poor macro in terms of too slow development and poor micro in terms of worker management.
Yeah. Honestly I think the biggest opportunity cost is temples and libraries early instead of settlers and workers. Losing the engineer hammers is a cost, but I can't see it being decisive.
If Communism was a win-button, maybe it would be a worthwhile approach. But Communism multiplies the power of your empire, not adds to it, so a gimped empire running State Property with the Kremlin is still going to be pretty weak. At least in theory, if everything works out the normal way. Probably something weird will happen and confident lurker predictions won't mean anything.
(September 15th, 2016, 07:54)The Black Sword Wrote: I was thinking you could just let the GEs complete at the start of the game so you don't slow down the start. Then use them to rush the AP and Minaret for extra great prophet gpp, which is surely the bottleneck in any Lib plan.
Hmmm... maybe, but I could also see the GS for Edu or the leftover raw beakers remaining (~600 total) being potential bottlenecks too. The GS could be a bottleneck because the total cost of Education minus the GS bulb beakers is something like ~280 beakers, and, figuring you can't really saving gold for more than a few turns at the beginning (since expenses are so low), then you're gonna have that done by T19-T20 or so. Anything later than that is just extra turns onto the lib date because the GS's bulb beakers won't overflow, but rather just complete the tech. Likewise, having the GP any earlier than the time it takes to complete the remaining ~320 beakers won't do any good either. I would expect that maybe a T24-T25 lib date to be possible.
This is, of course, for the fastest-possible lib date, which they're going for. (because they're insane) Allowing the first two GP to be GEs and then using the third and fourth to complete lib would be a lot stronger... especially if, say, the GS comes outta the third city using a short sprint of caste and the GP comes outta the fourth, with the two wonders rushed there and a temple chopped in. (and eventually becoming the NE site)
The should still be careful though, because if they goof around too much trying to hit a big lib target then Mack might snipe it from them.
Quote:especially if, say, the GS comes outta the third city using a short sprint of caste and the GP comes outta the fourth, with the two wonders rushed there and a temple chopped in. (and eventually becoming the NE site)
I was thinking you have a temple completed in city 2 by the time it completes it's GE and a library in the capital by the time it completes its one. Then use Caste in the third city and to mess with the timing in the capital. It is going to be slower than Alhazard's approach, but hopefully you pick up on someone doing that and can change gears.
Quote:The should still be careful though, because if they goof around too much trying to hit a big lib target then Mack might snipe it from them.
IIRC they're just planning on taking Astro, I guess they'll get there a bit faster than researching it manually.
(September 16th, 2016, 13:41)Mardoc Wrote: If Communism was a win-button, maybe it would be a worthwhile approach. But Communism multiplies the power of your empire, not adds to it, so a gimped empire running State Property with the Kremlin is still going to be pretty weak.
May be if you take Communism with Liberalism...
1 GS for Edu, 1 for PP, 2 for SM, GP for Liber and GE for Kremlin. Sounds possible imho. Has anyone tried?
It's hard to follow his thread because of the practical-value screenshots for teammates that seem to be barely paying attention, but it looks like Alhazard is about to found 2 more cities and grab communism/Kremlin.
I get the feeling he's well within the zone that allows you to compete. A lot of his success depends on what his neighbors do.
I think some of the teams are writing off other teams WAY too quickly.
Poor Alhazard. Fortunately for the game, RMOG have realized they've made some errors.
