Minimalist Balance Mod?

[Square Leg]

Corps are exclusive to those who have a GP at the right time. Balancing could be in the form of allowing that exclusivity to be the HQ. Other should be able to found branches once a tech is discovered. following the ffh religion model isn't a bad idea...

[TheMeInTeam]

I think I agree with you on corps, and blockades I don't mind personally either. Spies though are a problem for at least one more reason. They were designed with the assumption that tech trading is on, and let you steal techs too cheaply. Your counterespionage solution doesn't work because two people can collude.

The common complaint I hear about spies is that they can see things on the map. Can't say I mind that either.

I'm talking about the mission "counter-espionage" mostly.

For MUCH less hammer investment into spies (the mission has functionally 100% success rate) you can drastically raise the cost of espionage missions (IE it MORE than nullifies the -50% stationary spy bonus for example...which is hard to get with an enemy spy on the tile anyway)...to the point that EP would GREATLY struggle to keep up with standard research. Even if 2 civs collude, you can just run 2-4 spies and tag them both with counter-espionage missions...splitting EP if you must if both are trying to steal. They'll come out WAY behind on that. If you don't believe me, run the math .

Again, I ask for a link to a SINGLE instance in a RB game where someone ran counter-espionage mission and spy-blocked the local city (ies) and struggled with anything but civic/rel flips (which could also be countered, though with more difficulty, by flipping THEM in to YOUR stuff first , which blocks their mission until revolting back...something only SPI truly counters).

I don't think a game exists here where someone put a competent anti-spy effort in place and still came out behind on anything but flips......

Corps are exclusive to those who have a GP at the right time.

And this isn't determined by skill...well how exactly?

Also, the math doesn't support that corps are consistently a good idea. You have to:

1. Research the proper techs
2. Farm the GP and hold onto it for a while
3. Bear the opportunity cost of alternative uses of the GP
4. Sink hammers into executives to spread it
5. Invest in gold infra to get wall street probably
6. Have enough relevant resources to make it all worthwhile (4-6 hammer mining inc isn't worthwhile; you can easily get this with the food bonus from state property workshops! 20h mining inc is obviously worthwhile, but if you control that much land yourself you already won most likely).

Compare this to state property or even just a basic merc/rep setup...the assertion that corps in their current form are too strong is frankly ridiculous and unproven. The above is NOT a gimme from game to game on a consistent basis; going corps is often a setback, even with the hands-down strongest one (mining inc)...and yet this is banned while somehow AP resolutions (stop war, force open borders, etc) aren't. It's ridiculous enough that it's hard for me to believe that such nonsense is generally accepted .

[SevenSpirits]

Even if 2 civs collude, you can just run 2-4 spies and tag them both with counter-espionage missions...splitting EP if you must if both are trying to steal. They'll come out WAY behind on that. If you don't believe me, run the math .

You're saying counterespionage by a third party will increase your costs? I'm 99% sure it doesn't work like that.

Again, I ask for a link to a SINGLE instance in a RB game where someone ran counter-espionage mission and spy-blocked the local city (ies) and struggled with anything but civic/rel flips (which could also be countered, though with more difficulty, by flipping THEM in to YOUR stuff first , which blocks their mission until revolting back...something only SPI truly counters).

I don't think a game exists here where someone put a competent anti-spy effort in place and still came out behind on anything but flips......

Well the only reasonably recent game that allowed spies at all was pbem13. And there the only broken thing IMO was the tech steal colluding. If the game had continued, counterespionage missions would have come under effect.

Edit: Oh actually, IMO there's one other kind of broken thing, namely great spy infiltration. It simply gives too many EP.

[Krill]

Corps comes down to luck as well, getting the right GP at the right time.

1. Research the proper techs
2. Farm the GP and hold onto it for a while
3. Bear the opportunity cost of alternative uses of the GP
4. Sink hammers into executives to spread it
5. Invest in gold infra to get wall street probably
6. Have enough relevant resources to make it all worthwhile (4-6 hammer mining inc isn't worthwhile; you can easily get this with the food bonus from state property workshops! 20h mining inc is obviously worthwhile, but if you control that much land yourself you already won most likely).

1. You research the techs anyway.
   
2. Depends on luck, you might spawn one right before you needed it or consistently hit 10% artists when you want a GM or vice versa.
   
3. Opportunity costs for the two food corps and Mining Inc are insignificant compared to corp spam.
   
4. Don't forget the gold to spread them! Interesting comparison here to missionaries, but you have to consider what else you'd build instead of them. It's not that difficult to not have much else to build except an army.
   
5. You should be doing this anyway to maximize outputs.
   
6. The cost of running SP workshops is that you haven't cottaged the tiles and can lose a significant commerce advantage.

PBEM4 shows just how stupid corps can become. I planted a good dozen cities that had only 2-3 tiles to work, proper filler cities and gave them a food corps and Mining Inc. After a forge and factory they were throwing out 2-3 turn MI. Add in the ability that food corps and hammer corps let you rebuild conquered lands much faster than a competitor could do without them, and they are effectively a must have.

[SevenSpirits]

PBEM4 shows just how stupid corps can become. I planted a good dozen cities that had only 2-3 tiles to work, proper filler cities and gave them a food corps and Mining Inc. After a forge and factory they were throwing out 2-3 turn MI. Add in the ability that food corps and hammer corps let you rebuild conquered lands much faster than a competitor could do without them, and they are effectively a must have.

PBEM4 is a terrible example. You were far in the lead before getting any corps. The outcome was not affected by them.

What it shows is that when someone is way ahead, surprise! Their advantage will snowball. Especially if they keep reinvesting their advantage instead of just ending the game.

[Cyneheard]

PBEM4 is a terrible example. You were far in the lead before getting any corps. The outcome was not affected by them.

I don't think I'd have died if he couldn't get all the units built that he did. I'd say the outcome was affected rather significantly.

[SevenSpirits]

I don't think I'd have died if he couldn't get all the units built that he did. I'd say the outcome was affected rather significantly.

The outcome = Krill winning. You actually don't think he could have won without killing you?

[Cyneheard]

Yeah, he could've won rather easily with space. But it took a "enough to win via space" victory and converted that into an Adlain vs. Lord Parkin gap. And mostly because he got to the corp techs first, which means that even if he didn't have such a large lead, it would've become that in very little time.

Krill would have never gotten that 300 MA + close to 100 Stealth Bomber force that he used against me; he wouldn't have even been able to tech to Modern Armor and such as quickly, and another 10-15t = Tanks + Artillery, at a minimum. And without infinite Stealth Bombers, my units don't get bombed out of existence before the fighting even starts.

And simply "ending the game" wasn't really an option for Krill, against me at least, because the Dreadfort was simply loaded.

[darrelljs]

Banning Sid's on a water map is necessary. After that it gets pretty hazy.

Darrell

[Krill]

The outcome = Krill winning. You actually don't think he could have won without killing you?

I couldn't have put together enough units to easily take out everyone AND hold off Cyneheard. You did see he had 200 units, at least 150 of them modern units? The reason I managed to build 400MA and 100 SB and 100 MI was because of the roughly 1600 hammers a turn I was getting from Mining Inc. Add in the food that let me regrow the population in all of the new cities that I'd captured, it meant I increased the amount of population I had five fold, working cottages>towns and rush buying in cities that weren't making 1 turn MA. In the end I had, what, 6kbpt?