[SPOILERS] scooter tries again: back to school! (Willem of Vikings)

[scooter]

Alright, I need one place where I get to compile some synergistic options. I'm talking through this in my own head, but it's helpful to write it down. Also - this list is in no way meant to be in order of strength or equal in power - I'm just writing all of them down in stream of consciousness style so I can then pick through them and start to get a grasp on what I want here. I'm not including the Russia/France ones, as the penalty there is strong enough to dissuade me.

1) Pair FIN/ORG. Darius is typically one of those "newbie synergies" in that it's not incredible, it's a bit obvious, and it's easy for a green player to get a nice bonus from it. It's stronger than normal here though. FIN is nice because duh, and it also gets a boost from the water that's present. IF the map is really similar to last time, practically every city will have water in it. I'm guessing it'll at least be pretty close. ORG get the Courthouse boost, but don't underestimate the cheap Lighthouse either. We'll want one in practically every city if the amount of coast is similar, so that's a not insignificant bonus. Add on the FIN coast bonus, and you have a very strong economic power here. If you can use this to tech IW + masonry, uncover the marble, and 1T Oracle -> MC, Colossus could be very strong. Having cheap Lighthouses, Courthouses, and 2/0/4 tiles everywhere is nice.

2) PHI + Maya. +3 happiness from the start is fairly awesome. Especially since this is the kind of capital you want to go vertical on. However, Maya starts with Mining which means no railroaded hill (also Myst which is fine), which does hurt quite a bit. So that's the major downside here.

3) FIN/PRO (or IMP/PRO) Dutch. Very cool because you get +1h/+1c on every water tile in addition to the normal levee/FIN bonuses to river. This could be really awesome. Bad news? They start with Agriculture, which means no improved whales. Really too bad - that means no Dike + Whales, which probably removes my interest in this. I think a cool bonus for PRO would have been no starting tech maluses or reduced maluses or something. (added later) Wait, Noble just pointed out that it includes the city tile and SE of the capital. Hmm. This is still really tempting. And actually, I'm realizing I'm being too hard on the value of losing the whale. Sure the Whale wouldn't be improved, but I mean, FIN/PRO Dutch means that whale tile is still 3/1/3 instead of 3/1/4 for everyone else. IMP/PRO Dutch would mean a fun 4/1/3 even unimproved. Actually, to take ANOTHER step back - Dutch is basically only effect one tile - the lake. That's because the Dike (on whale) is cancelled out by the fact that it's un-netted, so really I could just take another civ and all I'm losing is 1h on the lake tile. Hmmm. And I'm essentially getting a free plains hill start just for taking the levee. Pair this with someone like Mali, and this could still be pretty cool. I'll think more on this. It does feel a bit red herring-ish still, but it would definitely make for a strong capital.

4) PHI + ORG (+America optional). Increased happiness, fast ORG Supermarket growth. America starts with Fishing (good!) and Agriculture (bad!). Losing the whale really would bum me out too much I think. PHI/ORG is still nice with a more bland choice.

5) ORG + Vikings. Vikings were obviously strong in PBEM32 since galleys opened up all sorts of warfare options. Getting their very fun UB for cheap is super cool. Only downside is I'm also playing Vikings in PB5 so that could be a bit bland. Vikings have Fishing/Hunting which is one of the better tech options we have here.

6) EXP + Inca. Had to throw this one in. Losing the scout is not much of a penalty at all. Inca is still a great civ. Honestly, the fact that it starts with Agriculture and loses the Whales is a bigger penalty than losing the scout. Is it worth starting with Agriculture? Maybe. I mean, what's honestly better, Pacal of Inca without Whales or mid-tier traits that have the whales?

7) PHI + Agg/Chm. This is to get a REALLY early academy. This is probably a slight "trap move" though because it would tie up a population really early.

8) CRE + ORG. Ok this is the least "synergistic" of them all and it's not really synergistic at all to be honest. This is more just a grab-bag of cheap buildings on a map where that infrastructure is really nice to have. Already discussed why the ORG bonuses of Courthouse/Lighthouse are cool here, and obviously the cheap libraries are useful too. In the midgame, cheap Theaters/Colosseums are useful, and in the late game, cheap Factories are awesome if the game lasts that long. Plus I kinda want to play with CRE despite the fact that it's the only trait of the 4 I like that doesn't have any obvious synergy. You could pair this with anything really - probably go route #5 and pair it with Vikings or something.

Again, these are not in order of power, they're just in order I thought of them. Also, there's some overlap - #8 and #5 can go together for example. This is why I like this kind of set up - some of these I don't like as much as others, but this is still a lot of fun possibilities. With 5 players, I'm bound to get something I'll like here.

(Also, I wrote most of the post overestimating how useful netted whales are. I can't remember the last time I used whales, so I've forgotten that the net only adds 0/1/2 to the tile, so even without it, it's a 3/0/2 base tile AKA Oasis. I've made some edits to this post since then, but if you feel I'm overselling the Agri penalty in a few spots, that's probably because I am. I still think it's a big penalty though relatively speaking, but not necessarily WAY worse than, say, Hunting.)

[scooter]

Fun fact, I know the "Every Major's Terrible" song by heart

Good luck Scooter! I'm looking forward to following this thread.

Thanks! And do you mean you know the original song by heart or you actually memorized that comic? Another fun fact: I played the original song in a handbell choir in high school. Don't ask . But it was fun.

When that comic came out, I laughed, particularly at the Physics major bit, and then sadly went back to work as an engineer.

[NobleHelium]

Good catches, thanks. That makes it much more tempting.

You should get confirmation from Commodore that the SE tile is actually riverside first.

[scooter]

You should get confirmation from Commodore that the SE tile is actually riverside first.

The tile yield screenshot gives it away.

[DaveV]

When that comic came out, I laughed, particularly at the Physics major bit, and then sadly went back to work as an engineer.

+1

"negligent"

I think you mean "negligible"? [/vocabulary nazi]

[scooter]

I think you mean "negligible"? [/vocabulary nazi]

Yikes, I have no idea how I did that. This is why I often avoid typing things in the morning .

[scooter]

So a few more thoughts I need to write down so I don't forget...

1) Animal Husbandry is important here. The rice may be a 5F tile, but the pigs is 6F. AH requires either Agriculture or Hunting. So really, starting with something like Fishing/Mysticism has the large downside of having to use a tech path of Agri -> AH -> Mining -> BW just to get into slavery, and that's procrastinating Hunting which I need to camp the elephants. So there's a lot I need to tech here early so it's less logical to take sucky techs to avoid minor penalties. Starting to think I need to suck it up and take a good tech with a rougher penalty.

2) One of the drawbacks of the Levee thing is the important tiles are not riverside. Rice, Pigs, Whale, RR mine, elephant - none of those are riverside, and I'll probably want to work them all. The only exception is the marble, and I can't even touch that until IW + Masonry are in. Of course, I could take Mining tech and ignore the RR mine because a riverside mine with Levee is the same thing, but you get the point. Of course I'll want to work all those river grass tiles as cottages, but the main point is that won't come into effect for awhile - until I'm able to start hitting sizes 7, 8, 9, etc. And while I have ivory here, I don't see any other happies. I could do something like Oracle Monarchy, but the point is a Levee won't contribute to a rocket start at all - it'll just speed me up once I've already hit 4, 5, 6 cities. At that point, I'm pretty iffy on using the Levee. It sounds really fun, but practically speaking, it's benefits don't come soon enough. I haven't ruled it out, but it's dropping on my list somewhat. Still though - using it to power through some key early-mid game wonders would be powerful. Plus the novelty of using Protective is kinda fun.

3) I think techs are slightly less important than they were last time around. That feels weird to me, but I think it's an accurate statement. Sure the punishments are about where they should be, but I believe it's more important than last time to get one of the strong techs due to the start with wet agri food and ah food. Last time, you could improve a Hunting food immediately - I think that's the main difference here.

4) I haven't commented yet on the presence of marble instead of stone. This is interesting to me. In order to get that, you need IW, Masonry, and enough worker turns to build a quarry. Considering all the other tech needs we have here, that's a long time. Oracle probably falls before all that happens. If it doesn't though - look out. I'm thankful for the absence of stone in the immediate vicinity - that and the slight IND nerfing (giving an extremely mild bonus) Commodore gave confirms to me that Pyramids will be sufficiently expensive to somebody. Hopefully stone is further away so it can't be reached for awhile and requires sacrifice. Anyways, MoM will likely be an important wonder here with Marble available.

5) The religious route is somewhat attractive here. I see no happies besides the ivory, so I'm guessing a religion + early HR will be good ideas here. Pure speculation, but I think it may ring true. Oracle to either unlock Colossus or HR is interesting to me. My main curiosity will be if someone wants Oracle pre-marble or not. If they do, they will probably get it.

6) I learned last time that Stonehenge is really quite valuable on a map like this that has a bit of breathing room. If I don't go with CRE, Henge may be a priority. We'll see. Kinda throwing mental darts here right now since I haven't even chosen my leader/civ.

[oledavy]

Thanks! And do you mean you know the original song by heart or you actually memorized that comic?

The comic, though I also know the first stanza (is that the word?) of the original song.

On that note, going to suggest for your naming theme you use Gilbert and Sullivan Operas or worthless college majors :neenernee

[scooter]

or worthless college majors :neenernee

I really like the idea of naming cities after college majors. Although I don't want to, like, offend anyone by naming a city after their major .

I also thought of a spin-off of the idea Square Leg had in my short-lived PBEM36 thread I wasn't able to do. He suggested lurkers post relaxing pictures and I try to name it after that. I loved the idea, but already had a good idea with my theme there. Anyways, I was thinking about adapting that here - lurkers post funny pictures instead of relaxing pictures. Whichever is funniest to me, I try to come up with a "title" for it in 15 chars or less and that's the city name.

[Sian]

then i go classical and post this image, for the capital