Rebalancing Civ4: RtR Mod

[Gaspar]

This probably is a topic for general but maybe we should just have everyone give their general timeslot and then assign first or second in all potential wars at game start based on those timeslots with faster game movement in line.

Or, y'know, just play PBEMs.

[GermanJoey]

Big games are cooler and more interesting though.

[Krill]

Also larger games allow more...long term strategies to come to fruition. 5 player PBEMs are all about the snowball from T0.

[spacetyrantxenu]

This probably is a topic for general but maybe we should just have everyone give their general timeslot and then assign first or second in all potential wars at game start based on those timeslots with faster game movement in line.

Or, y'know, just play PBEMs.

Or, since this is the modding subforum, create a new Civ (Lurker Civ) and a new UU (some kind of invincible, 99 move blitzing tank thing named Turn Ender). New large games that employ the Lurker Civ have a game rule that people who abuse the timer will invoke an automatic Turn Ender attack. Mwahahaha, PYFT!*

*Not a 100% serious mod suggestion.

[Krill]

I'm going to post this here, because I still feel that it's an issue in RtR.

Is Caste too good? I've got my own thoughts on it (and my opinion is that it is still too good) but I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts on this, along with potential changes.

[Commodore]

I'm going to post this here, because I still feel that it's an issue in RtR.

Is Caste too good? I've got my own thoughts on it (and my opinion is that it is still too good) but I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts on this, along with potential changes.

I'd reframe; Slavery and Serfdom are too weak under typical conditions.

[GermanJoey]

I'm going to post this here, because I still feel that it's an issue in RtR.

Is Caste too good? I've got my own thoughts on it (and my opinion is that it is still too good) but I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts on this, along with potential changes.

Yeah it is, but I think its main problem is that it scales too well into the late game. I think its a fine trade off compared to Slavery (slower-but-more-over-time hammers compared to the whip + specialist flexibility), but then it later also synergizes with SoL, State Property, the new version of Mercantilism in 2.0.7.4, Environmentalism, etc. Slavery eventually fades away (which is fine), Emancipation is a wash because you want typically want hammers, not commerce, in the late game and it carries a huge diplo malus, and Commodore is right that Serfdom is interesting but isn't as broadly useful early.

I would at least make it high upkeep, then maybe also give Emancipation a boost (happy faces? +1 food per city?). If Serfdom needs a boost, maybe bring the commerce boost to windmills/watermills at Electricity to a slightly earlier tech?

[Krill]

Well, my thoughts to nerf Caste were somewhat more...hardcore. For example, I think the best nerf to it would be to remove the infinite specialist slots. and replace them with a set number, and then make additional buildings give extra spec slots. For example, +1 scientist, artist, merchant spec slot, then +1 scientist slot from uni, +1 merchant from a bank, +1 artist from Theatre for example.

As said, the problem isn't really the early section of the game where Caste becomes available, it is that late game it overpowers everything else.

[AdrienIer]

+1 artist scientist merchant slot and double artist scientist merchant slots from buildings ?

[Krill]

Basically something along those lines, yeah. Unfortunately, when the devs coded civ, the choices are infinite slots or none at all from a civic so it'll require some DLL work to introduce. Still, it seems like a best way to me to rebalance Caste without destroying what the civic is.

When it comes to what buildings should give the extra slots, I don't know for sure which ones are best to give except I don't think that allowing more than 4 specialists slots from a single building plus Caste is entire beneficial. Therefore I would not want to see Caste give +1 free spec and then +2 from a market, lib, theatre etc. OTOH, I do believe that if Caste were weakened to not give more than 1 free specialist and nothing from the first rank of buildings (ie library, theatre, market etc) it would be possible to diversify what specialist slots it did enable with from other buildings. For example, giving +1 spy specialist slot from a courthouse or +1 engineer slot from a forge. i.e. if Caste + lib only gave 3 scientist slots it could increase the availability of slots for engineers, spies and priests. Down this route lies many balanced points where Caste would be viable but not overpower other civics.