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luddite Wrote:How much would it hurt us to research mysticism earlier?
A lot. It would take us 8 to 9 turns to research Mysticism (probably after Pottery), then work a forested plains hill for six turns, then wait ten turns for borders to expand, and then two turns to improve the mine (provided we double-team workers and pre-place them).
Ie, instead of T34 we are talking about T46 or so, and we would have delayed the growth of Adventure Two with six turns when building the monument. That's a loss of 108 commerce from the delayed gold mine alone... - that's an entire techs worth.
We can settle Adventure Two in the northern plains hill spot (1W of gold) on T28, though, and still get the mine online T34. But it will be much harder to get Adventure Two to size 2 in time. Will have to sim and check.
Quote:Another question to consider- how good is a gold mine, really? We're financial with lots of river tiles- a gold mine is only worth as much as two riverside hamlets (or three riverside cottages if you count maintenance). I don't think we need to rush to work the gold ASAP. Maybe we could settle 2W of the corn, and just work the deer, cows, and cottages for a while? Really annoying to lose the corn, though.
There are two factors to consider when evaluating tiles: their raw output, and what I dub their "velocity".
A simple example is the following: say that you have two tiles that combines to 6F and 6H. What would you rather have, two plains cows or one pig and one copper mine? (We assume you have all the resources since earlier, for purposes of this exercise.)
The latter (mixed-tile) option is clearly superior. Grow to size 2 in four turns, and then get 12 foodhammers from turn 5. The cows would take eight turns to grow to size 2, ie you'd gain 12 hammers first, but on turn eight the pigs+copper would be equal in hammers and far ahead in food.
We literally cannot have two floodplains hamlets up and worked on T34. But we can have the gold mine.
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Had a chat with Luddite. We discussed the gold mine and then discussed future city 3 possibilities + GLH. Not required reading, but some discussion at least.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
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settling next to the corn/gold literally gains 40 hammers immediately for not having to build a monument. We lose the cow but I think the fast gold is worth it, and we can use the cow for an off-river cottage city later
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uberfish Wrote:settling next to the corn/gold literally gains 40 hammers immediately for not having to build a monument. We lose the cow but I think the fast gold is worth it, and we can use the cow for an off-river cottage city later
Well we wouldn't be building a monument for like 40 turns, by which point the plains hill hammer has made up for it.
basically I see it as a choice between a city with (initially) deer, corn, and gold vs. deer, cow, and a PH. The gold is better if we really need early commerce (maybe to get the GLH faster?) but the cow and PH give us more raw hammers for expansion, and in the long run cottages will give more cottages than a gold mine.
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Fuck monuments.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
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Like Lewwyn posted, I don't even see this as a real argument. Settling 1W of the corn puts us so far ahead of the alternate plains hill site that I don't even consider it to be viable. I mean, I can type up a few more paragraphs explaining why I feel this way, but it sounds like everyone arguing against this hasn't taken the time to sim things out. Go ahead, test it out and see how it goes. Civilization is all about the starting snowball, and you just aren't going to do much better than getting riverside corn + gold hill mine available instantly at the second city. This WILL put us ahead, and once we're ahead we should be able to stay ahead.
I have some time and a decent Internet connection tonight, so I am going to test out some different second city sequences. MAJOR thanks to kjn for creating the updated sandbox! ![[Image: thumbsup.gif]](http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Smilies/thumbsup.gif)
July 23rd, 2012, 00:37
(This post was last modified: July 23rd, 2012, 01:03 by Sullla.)
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Alright, put this in the micro thread but it's relevant for discussion here at well. Go over there if you want all of the ugly micromanagement details. 
![[Image: ISDG-28s.jpg]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19563179/ISDG/ISDG-28s.jpg)
Cities:
![[Image: ISDG-29s.jpg]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19563179/ISDG/ISDG-29s.jpg)
![[Image: ISDG-30s.jpg]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19563179/ISDG/ISDG-30s.jpg)
Savegame: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19563179/ISDG/IS...dSwordSave
Comments:
* Basic plan is the fast settler plan initial proposed by Kyan, then modified to fit new settling location and information.
* We need Hunting first for the deer tile, then we need Pottery second to cottage the floodplains at the capital. These have to be the first two techs. Because of our second city, Mining should then be the third tech, so that we can immediately connect the gold. Animal Husbandry or Bronze Working can follow after this, depending on our needs and what we find in the fog. I'm tentatively assuming BW before AH for chopping/whipping purposes.
* There was some talk of going settler before worker #2. I do not advise this at all; we need that second worker very, very badly. Our original plan called for a basic worker -> size 2 -> worker -> size 3 -> settler build, and I do not advise changing this. A faster settler that works unimproved tiles doesn't help us.
* Capital will hit size 6 on T40. We can chop/whip more workers or settlers at this point, or halt growth at size 5 on T37 if desired. Not entirely sure how to play this one most efficiently.
* We should revolt to Slavery on T40. Workers are putting a chop into a third worker, and don't lose the turn chopping. Plus we probably want to double-whip a settler out of capital next.
* Weakness of this plan: extreme farmer's gambit. We delay Animal Husbandry tech for Mining -> Bronze Working and a faster growth curve. We rely on the huge size of the map, the enemy scout starts, the barbs roaming the wilderness, and the skill of our diplo team to keep us safe.
* Strength of this plan: amazing growth curve. This opening is crazy, ridiculously, STUPIDLY fast at starting out. After 40 turns, we have a capital at size 6 (working double food bonuses, double floodplains cottages, and double grassland cottages, ALL OF THEM RIVERSIDE AS FINANCIAL!!!), our second city working irrigated corn + gold mine, third worker (T44 with chop) and second settler (T45 with double whip; T43 with triple whip if desired) in production, 31 beakers/turn at break-even rate... I'm amazed at how well this works out. There's likely room for further improvement as well from what I have here, so have at it!
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novice Wrote:Do elaborate. I know there's a rebase trick come airships, but I'm guessing you had something else in mind?
This:
![[Image: Civ4ScreenShot0340.jpg]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7489730/Civ4ScreenShot0340.jpg)
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Hax!
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OMG!
Ok, I located our neighbours.
Will prepare a map.
For a moment I was thinking, whether we should use this exploit or not.
I decided to use it on the grounds that this is probably known to more people than just nabaxo and was not strictly forbidden by the rules.
Anyone strongly against me publishing this map here?
mh
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