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Are you, in fact, a pregnant lady who lives in the apartment next door to Superdeath's parents? - Commodore |
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Tides of War, a balance mod
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Click the check box in the options when you start a new game - its there near the other game options like "Lock Modified Assets," "Add Tribal Villages," "Unrestricted Leaders" etc
September 24th, 2015, 21:32
(This post was last modified: September 24th, 2015, 22:39 by SevenSpirits.)
Version 1.4.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1116...20v1.4.zip * Communism: No longer gives a great spy * State Property: Only -50% distance maintenance instead of -100% * FIN: Gains double speed banks * IMP: Loses double speed Banks, gains double speed Grocers. * Colossus: Doesn't obsolete Commentary: Communism and State Property were REALLY GOOD. In fact I believe that State Property was the one right choice for the late game despite requiring an expensive dead-end tech. I believe that it's still the best civic in the column with this change, but perhaps now by a margin commensurate with the cost of the tech. Maybe it won't get beelined in every game now. Calculating the benefits of FIN compared to other traits (especially ORG) in games indicated that FIN was underpowered. Banks are thematic for them. This meant that IMP had to lose Banks, so it gained the comparable Grocers. When Colossus was super-powerful, obsoleting at Astronomy was a reasonable (if ineffective) counterweight. Now that its effect is changed, it's fair to remove the obsolescence. I don't have a great reason for keeping it for simplicity, since the entire ability of the wonder is already changed. First post updated.
Many nice ideas in this mod. The design philosophy is close to my thinking. What I disagree most about is the redesigns of aggressive and protective. To me these are 1) too big changes that will be hard to balance 2) unnecessary removes certain playstyles 3) messes with the theme of leaders 4) unbalances when playing with restricted leaders.
I would suggest to keep them quite similar to before but switch granary to protective as in rtr mod. If you rein in financial, expansive and maybe creative and organized you only need smaller buffs to protective/aggressive to keep them viable. As I see it all traits will never be completely balanced, we just do not want auto-pick auto-discard. My suggestions: Buffed: Imperialistic Great General emergence increased 100 percent. 50% faster production of Settlers. Double production speed of Customs House. Protective Free Drill I promotion for archery and gunpowder units. Double production speed of Walls, Castle and Granary. Charismatic +2 happiness per city. -25% XP needed for unit promotions. Aggressive Free Combat I promotion for melee and gunpowder units. Double production speed of Barracks, Drydock, and Stables. Nerfed Expansive +2 health per city. Double production speed of Harbor, Grocer. 25% faster production of workers and work boats. Financial +1 commerce on plots with at least 2 commerce except cottage/hamlet/village/town. Unchanged Creative +2 culture per city. Double production speed of Library, Theater, and Colosseum. Organized. Civic upkeep reduced 50 percent. Double production speed of Lighthouse, Factory, and Courthouse Philosophical Great People birth rate increased 100 percent. Double production speed of University. Spiritual No anarchy. Double production speed of Temples and the Cristo Redentor wonder. Industrious Wonder production increased 50 percent. Double production speed of Forge. The most controversial change is probably that to financial. The reasoning is as follows: cottaging is strong on ancient starts even without financial. It is somewhat balanced by the trade-off of working inferior tiles early on as the late game bonii makes towns extremely good. Financial rivers removes that trade-off and makes already great positions overpowered. The issue I have with granting extra commerce only on 3 tiles is that it makes financial all about cottages (unless you add extra buildings for boosting coast tiles) whereas I want to do the opposite. I love the unusual improvement choices like farming riverside silks or going for heavy wind/lumber mills that financial promotes.
May 3rd, 2016, 10:10
(This post was last modified: May 3rd, 2016, 10:15 by The Black Sword.)
 Quote:What I disagree most about is the redesigns of aggressive and protective. I'm pretty sure you're not alone there, it seems to be the most polarising change in the mod.  Seven wrote his reasoning somewhere earlier in the thread. Personally, I like the fact that we have two new traits to play with, and I don't view Agg and Pro as big losses.Regarding your suggested traits, I agree that the traits will never be completely balanced but I do think the goal should be to make them as balanced as possible. People are looking for any small advantage they can get in these games and even small differences would result in traits not being picked, leading to less variety. I think you can make arguments that most of your traits are relatively close, but I'd definitely have my own rankings between them. In particular Aggressive and Expansive would fall into an auto-discard pile for me. As for Financial, it's a pretty decent idea, encouraging different tile improvements is a good thing as you say. Have you seen the old RtR implementation: '+1 commerce on plots with at least 2 commerce except rivers'? It's a similar idea, encouraging farms/mills on riverside tiles. I guess your version would be a bit weaker though, so it might need a buff. I think the primary argument against these ideas are that they're pretty inelegant. It also seems a bit weird for the Financial civ not the prioritise the main financial tile in the game, ideally it would be other traits that encourage different tile improvements.
1) I'm guessing you are referring to his initial explanation for the trait changes.
Quote:AGG and PRO were, IMO, hopeless causes in BtS. Their effects could not be strengthened enough for the trait to be good, without really throwing off the game dynamics, because you need to fight and do well against other players to take advantage of them. In a free-for-all multiplayer game this is not a desirable dynamic. Rather than tack on unrelated bonuses, I decided to completely remove the traits and replace them with differently-themed ones. I chose names which shared the same starting letters so it's as easy as possible to adjust. These new traits need to be tested and probably tweaked, but I think they're in the ballpark. I see CIV as a war game first and an economy game second. You build an economic advantage and try to use it to conquer someone. The most exciting parts of CIV to me is warfare (and diplomacy in MP). I want war traits to increase variety in warfare (and also buffed drill promotions). I do not agree that you need to fight (like conquering someone early on) to take advantage of them. In every map that I have seen here players are placed in contact with neighbors who are plotting their downfall. Agg/pro makes it less likely that you are a target and means that you can reasonably devote less resources to defense which is a predictable economic advantage. This helps the entire game and even more so when the neutral land is claimed and the game will be decided by military conflict or a concession to the strongest player in military/economy. Even if you remove aggressive and protective you still have 2 semi-war traits left. Swapping CG1 for granary makes protective a semi-war trait as well. That only leaves aggressive which should have some long term bonus. An idea I have is to give it a 25% discount on upgrading units. This is a thematically related economic advantage that increases its long term potential without making early rushes too strong. 2) I think that traits that change plot yields are equally hard to balance as the war traits. Financial is the case in point. I would probably redesign to give 2 wealth from specialists and faster banks/markets if I started from the beginning. The RtR change that makes it not give a bonus on river is in the right direction, but still leaves it a bit strong IMO. Another idea for a nerf is to make it provide 1 wealth instead of 1 commerce for each plot with 2 commerce but it is goes against the general rules for the economy. You could also just make it give + 1 commerce on hamlet/village/town and coast. 3) I still value expansive highly even if it loses its fast granary for faster workboats and grocers. It still gives you a very fast start that only imperialistic can compete with and excellent health in the mid/late game where you might be seriously constrained by it. If aggressive gave a 25% discount on upgrades and expansive gave 35% worker/workboats production would they be balanced against the rest? Sorry for getting a bit off topic =) (May 2nd, 2016, 08:59)chumchu Wrote: My suggestions: What I hate about these changes is how it really makes them feel like obviously made for balance without any considerations for flavor. Firstly, how does having quicker granaries fit at all into what Protective is supposed to be? And Expansive barely feels like a trait when you take out the cheap granaries. Like in RTR the cheap grocers and work boats feels like "let's just add cheap stuff to this until it's balanced." But what is expansive even supposed to be? You have health bonuses and also worker/WB bonuses just because...? The financial change also feels incredibly arbitrary for the sake of balance (I also hated the old RTR implementation of FIN). It's only giving partial benefits of what a "full" financial trait would give because otherwise it would be too strong, but the +1c to 3c tiles implementation feels like you have a complete trait that just isn't as strong as before.
I'm a history student that play and design games, almost always with historical themes. I do think that flavor matters greatly but we may disagree as to its interpretation.
For me the embodiment of protective is China, a self-sufficient, cautious, inward-looking state where the legitimacy of the ruler stems from protecting the people from famine, invasion and disorder. Game wise I want it to be good on defense, and have some bonus for granaries and irrigation. Expansive has no clear historical flavor in my mind, some kind of wide decentralized empire is suggested by the name but the in game effect boosts early growth and makes larger cities later. I would rename it to urban(ite) or populist. Only a health bonus would not be very strong. It kind of makes sense both combining it with workers and granaries. The problem is that all three is too strong if the goal is to modify the other traits as little as possible. If you give it to workers you might as well give it work boats so as to make less dependent on inland/coastal start. Financial I imagine as the states and nations in exile that specialized in foreign trade and banking like Genoese, Armenians, Dutch, the maritime Chinese, Omani, Phoenicians etc.. The capitalistic oil on the waves of the market economy to quote Braudel. Game wise I want something with wealth rather than commerce to emphasize that it is about money rather than science/technology. But it is hard do that with the model of technology in the game.
July 2nd, 2016, 06:06
(This post was last modified: July 2nd, 2016, 06:06 by NobleHelium.)
I don't think playing with restricted leaders is a consideration at all for this mod since it focuses on MP as it's played here at RB, and I also think it's rather silly to imply that restricted leaders is balanced in the first place.
Civilization IV: 21 (Bismarck of Mali), 29 (Mao Zedong of Babylon), 38 (Isabella of China), 45 (Victoria of Sumeria), PB12 (Darius of Sumeria), 56 (Hammurabi of Sumeria), PB16 (Bismarck of Mali), 78 (Augustus of Byzantium), PB56 (Willem of China)
Hearthstone: ArenaDrafts Profile No longer playing Hearthstone.
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