Cheater Hater's PBEM58 Thread (with a surprise post lead!)

[Cheater Hater]

T75 Overview:
Let's start by looking at things domestically:




I don't use these screens enough to know how good or bad these numbers are--I remember back when I played SP if I had any unit cost I was doing it wrong
Anyway, things seem okay--what are "good" numbers for these screens? Don't forget, my research is still being hampered by only running 40% slider (though at least it's an arrow tech now--and that will show in the demos later).

Now to the overviews of my opponents, in reverse-score order:


B4ndit is still managing to put up a fight with me for last place somehow--he's still behind me in a bunch of areas, most notably GNP. I don't know what he's even researching--I know from civics he has Monarchy, and he has both IW and HR as a result of his buildup to our war, but I don't know how he's doing with the rest of stuff--does he have Currency yet, for instance?


I'm not sure what Twinkletoes is doing--he has a ton of cities, and the recent espionage rate increase (as shown in the espionage graph) means he's building courthouses to manage it, but it doesn't seem like he's standing out in much--he has no wonders and didn't found a religion, and I don't know if anything other than his happiness resources stand out. But he's my BFF, so I'll be ready to support him if he comes calling if AT decides to attack.


AT has exactly one weakness: he doesn't have that many cities. Other than that, he should be dominating this game: he Oracled Metal Casting, parlayed that into both Colossus and Pyramids, then moved into Police State and is surging up the power rankings. The real question is what does he do with that power--Twinkletoes is the juiciest target but is close to Longbows, eastway needs to be taken down a peg but is second in power, B4ndit is the weakest but has garbage land, and I have by far the least production but have Praets, a powerful whip and a refusal to roll over.


eastway was speeding along with 2 religions, Stonehenge and the Great Lighthouse--then he decided to take 3 of my workers and distract himself from his farmer's gambit, and now we're in a never-ending war neither of us can make progress in. Assuming we finish these peace negotiations sometime soon, I assume eastway should be fine, unless AT decides to attack eastway in the next 5 turns or so. Still, I don't know where his techs have been going--I really should consider Alphabet just for that reason.

Now to the demos--let's start with the numbers:


Remember, this is partially deflated (since I'm still at 40%, when 50% is near-break even), but still, I'm not doing that well, as the graphs will show. Let's start with the GNP graph:


It looks like eastway's finally kicking research back into overdrive--maybe he realized the war isn't really hurting anyone if we're not in conflict, like I did. The rest of it's a mess--remember, I'll be low for the next couple of turns as I 1T religious techs, but I'm not sure what's going on with everyone else.


This is a graph I don't think I've shown yet, mainly because how horrible I'm doing production-wise. I haven't cared that much about it (since it seems like early-game production is mainly based on use of the whip), but at some point I'm doing something wrong. How much of this is that my empire is small, and how much is it that I'm just not building enough mines? I mean, I don't think I've been wasting many worker moves--sure, I probably haven't built enough workers, but when was I supposed to build them? Am I supposed to just run a farmer's gambit and hope no one attacks? I mean, that's what you do in single player, but there you can just start over if someone attacks--we've already learned that's not what you can do here. Again, that's the prisoner's dilemma part of the game that I hate.


Not much has changed here--I've passed B4ndit in power again; does that mean it's time for me to attack and retake Peace? Is that the way to win--send 8 Praets/Cats/Axes to take Peace, and just hope AT doesn't attack me? I still think the "easiest" way for me to get back into this game is to have AT attack eastway, then I rejoin the war while all the forces are by Dale and pick off some of eastway's cities, clearing the south for me to get more good cities.

[Cheater Hater]

T76 Report:
Short report today, since I'm not really in a report-writing mood--I didn't even write a PB18 report for this turn
I'll just dump the domestic pictures, then write some stuff:






Not much is going on--I'm building a decent amount of workers, cities are growing quickly, the east is getting improved quickly. The main thing that's undecided is my research path, as always--I'm researching Mediation this turn, 1T-ing Priesthood next turn, then I have to decide where I'm going. Here are the basic paths I'm looking at:

• Monarchy: This isn't nearly as much a priority as it was before I got Calendar, but that still gives me the out to Feudalism and Longbows.
  
• Alphabet: Other than the obvious intelligence benefit, the main reason to get this is to free the bulb path to Philosophy--Taoism is still available, but I'd be using it mainly for culture--and even then the problem is that I'd need to waste a lot of time to get Missionaries out, especially since I don't plan on getting Monotheism (and Organized Religion) anytime soon.
  
• Civil Service: This is the obvious route--Bureaucracy will give me 20 base commerce right now (and that's before more cottage growth/more cottages), and then that gets multiplied through the Academy/Library to give me another 7-10 beakers, depending on where the break-even rate settles.
  
• Metal Casting: I need forges eventually, but the question is "when can I build them, and where?" Seriously, I don't know where other than Norende really wants a forge--Caldisla wants one eventually but it wants a Forum first I think, and Florem definitely wants one but it has a decent amount of stuff to build first (even though a lot of it will be whipped). Still, I think Norende makes me want Metal Casting sooner rather than later.
  
• Aesthetics: This line has a lot of stuff I would want--Parthenon, National Epic, and the Music Great Artist among other things--but for the most part it's a dead-end. Maybe when I get Alphabet I can see if anyone else is going down the Aesthetics path, and if not, I can try for Music.
  
• Horseback Riding: I need this sooner rather than later probably (as much as it hurts me to research a dead-end tech), but I don't think I need it that soon--maybe I'll backfill it when I'm ready to head to Guilds?
  
• Monotheism/Philosophy/Compass: I don't see any benefit for these techs at the moment (except maybe Monotheism for the arrow bonus for Monarchy?)
  

Right now, after finishing backfilling the relevant religious techs, I think my tech plan is going Civil Service->Metal Casting, then heading to Monarchy, Machinery, or Alphabet depending on the current war situation (Monarchy->Feudalism for a defensive war, Machinery for an offensive war, or Alphabet if I remain at peace).

[Old Harry]

What will you use priesthood for?

[Cheater Hater]

Priesthood is mainly just a prerequisite for Monarchy, as well as just another very cheap tech to backfill. I want to have Longbows available somewhat quickly, just in case of an emergency. It's not that expensive (it 1T'd at 20%, with presumably a decent amount of overflow), and it still hides my GNP for 1T more.

I got the turn early today, so I played it--then saw that AT might not be able to play until late tomorrow
Still, what's done is done, so here's a preview:

• eastway has moved two axes to the border of Miasma Woods--I'm starting a Praet I can whip in Miasma Woods and moved a Praet down from Florem, and I also offered the same peace for 40 gold we did before--I would have offered GPT but he is running a deficit now
  
• eastway managed to find time to complete Hanging Gardens during this war
  
• Things domestically are going fine--I need more military, but that's always true
  

[Cheater Hater]

T77 Report:
Just a quick recap, since I never did get around to making the real report (I think I just needed a break from reporting, and AT's break was perfectly timed ) : eastway built Hanging Gardens, I researched Priesthood, eastway moved two axes to my eastern border so I switched some stuff around and offered peace for him paying me 40 gold, and I kept building workers. All the pictures I normally take are in the Dropbox folder, if you feel empty from the lack of my reports. Now to the much more interesting report:

T78 Report:
I mentioned there were axes at my border last turn, but there's no "enemy is near" sounds--does that mean eastway made peace? Apparently not, since he offered flat peace at the beginning of the turn--no picture since there was no chance I'd be accepting it
Still, I'm weary of why eastway's axes are gone, so I'm going to check the event log to make sure there wasn't any combat I'm missing (like with the eastern Praet before):



All of those smileys could be applicable to the current situation, mainly due to the turn order (Twinkletoes->eastway->AT). Why would Twinkletoes try attacking eastway when he knows AT has the massive army--unless he had a scout shadowing AT's army moving towards Dale. How did they manage to both declare on the same turn--unless Twinkletoes was opportunistic and AT wanted to help pile on. Still, this is exciting and very good for my chances in this game, both because 2 and 3 are combining to take out 1 (notably everyone's been in at least one war now ), and because I can probably take advantage of this strife to grab/burn Isengard, if not more (maybe I'll get Brithombar if I get lucky/Twinkletoes gets there and expends all his forces weakening the troops? The turn order hurts me there, since he'll get his heal after Twinkletoes would attack but before I could follow up.) Anyway, that means I'm going to move the majority of my troops I was moving to guard against AT back to the western eastway border (both because the threat of AT attacking is lessened and because I want to have a chance to take eastway's cities while he's weakened). Now to the domestic overview:


More workers, with the exception of Starkfort, which can grow this turn if it works the banana for a turn--I could have done that earlier, but I just noticed that
Right now the worker that just finished there is going to improve the banana (which will be passed to Grapp Keep soon, probably as soon as it's improved), then cottage the tile 1E of that banana, then start working on the sugar. The worker that's coming out of Caldisla, for comparison, is going to stay at home, cottaging all around Caldisla, even some of the non-riverside tiles.


Well, the Twinkletoes war can't be a phony war at least, since eastway moved his axe stack out of view. As for Hartschild, I'm going to finish the Praet, then I'm not sure what I'll do--I could keep pumping out Praets, or I could 3-pop whip a Courthouse. I've got a couple turns to contemplate that decision at least, and I should be able to take a look at Isengard at least before I have to decide.


I did 3-pop whip Norende's courthouse this turn, but I'm not sure what I should overflow into--the Forum is the economic choice, but I might need some more military in the short term. Right now what I think I might do is overflow into a cheap unit (an archer for Florem maybe, or possibly my future GG Medic Chariot), then start the Forum.

One thing you might have noticed is the tech rate--yes, that is a very sustainable 4 turns for Civil Service! That should help a lot--I think I'll revolt right away, but that depends on what timetable my workers are on.

Now to the information section--there's good news and bad news, and we'll start with the bad news since it's old news: graph time!


It's a surprise that eastway's GNP is going up, even as he reacted to the Twinkletoes war--maybe that was him switching to a more well-known tech (HR? MC?). What's more surprising is how much AT's GNP is going down--last turn it was below my 20% research
I guess he just turned off research to support his million units?


*sigh* This I really need to improve somewhat, though getting back into the eastway war will help somewhat in that respect--a 100k deficit is only ~12 Praets
Still, the problem is that while Norende is poised to be my main unit producer, it's also my GP farm, which means it keeps getting distracted--it still wants a Forum in that respect, and if it's going to mainly produce units it wants a Barracks and a Forge soon--more things that aren't units

Now to some good news with the demos:


Hooray, I'm number 2 in GNP, only behind the monster that is eastway--ignore that the gap between me and 5th (B4ndit most likely) is smaller than the gap between me and eastway
Surprisingly, I'm still not doing that bad--my only real disadvantage is that my production is complete garbage, and that can be circumvented somewhat with chops and whips. I wonder what will happen once the mammoth that is eastway falls (or at least falls back in line) and then we all have to start worrying about AT?

[Cheater Hater]

TWO TURN DAY! TWO TURN DAY!
T79 Report:
I could start with my domestic overview, but let's be honest: I know what you want to see:


Wow, that's a decent decline--and yet no cities have changed hands yet. Let's get the demos and quantify that loss, as well as try to get an idea of eastway's power loss (since it won't show up on the graph until next turn):


AT's change in power: 49k (~8 Axes/HA's lost, probably more since more were likely built)
Total rival change in power: (239.25-219.75)*4=78k
Non-AT change in power: 29k
That's a lot less change in eastway's power than I thought--go RNG making AT take heavy losses! I want to make AT waste more time building units, letting me pass him in city count!

Now to the part of the turn I can directly control--domestic stuff!


Get ready to see some whips across the north--Grapp Keep obviously wants to whip its work boat next turn, and I'm going to 2-pop whip Starkfort's worker next turn--I would have actually finished the Praet in its queue, but it finishing would have coincided with the growth to size 9, which would actually grow it into unhappiness! Yeah, I'm surprised too (and no, it doesn't have any whip anger). Then again, it's fine whipping away tiles, since it's not working that many improved tiles--it's working 2 plains forests and 3 coast right now. For that matter, I think I'll whip next turn, finish the Praet (which might even finish in one turn due to the large overflow), then build and 2/3-pop whip the settler for banana city out of there. That means I won't have to whip Caldisla, and thus the capital can just grow onto many juicy cottages


No sign of troops over here, other than B4ndit's Horse Archer. You can see all my troops coming back however--I wonder how many troops I should bring on my first visit to the hill overlooking Isengard? My gut is saying the first Praet to make it there (in 2 turns) should go with the C2 Axe--I don't want to send just an axe since I assume eastway has multiple chariots floating around (though they might be over dealing with AT and Twinkletoes, rather than the person who doesn't need to use axes). Don't forget I'll be getting a Great General soon (27/30 Exp currently), while eastway has already gotten his first one--and checking the event log, AT killed it (while generating his own).


Another Praet! Two Praets rolling off the assembly line should make my power look a little more respectable (stopping B4ndit from getting any ideas), as well as giving my attack on Isengard a little more teeth. I'm also building an archer in Florem, which will allow me to move that Catapult back towards one of the front lines. The library in Misama Woods should finish next turn thanks to the first pigs chop as well, so that will help my research more as well.

Now to a couple more C&D-type screens that weren't directly related to the first AT/eastway battle:


Such steep graphs! When you saw that I was third in GNP in the demos, you knew that someone had to have passed me, but I certainly didn't expect Twinkletoes to be the one--and for Twinkletoes to even pass eastway! I'm also closer to 1 then I am to 5 now at least


Seriously, MoM too! Stop building wonders for AT eastway! At least he built MoM in his capital, and that's unlikely to be taken (though I thought Annu was farther away from eastway's southern border than it was--even if we assume Dale isn't the southern border anymore, that's still only 2 or 3 cities eastway has to chew through, only one of which is a reasonable size).

Hopefully we're getting a third turn today--this war has reenergized my interest in this game, even if I think it'll just end up with AT becoming the unstoppable juggernaut instead of eastway--at least AT didn't decide to torpedo my already-losing game for little reason

[Cheater Hater]

T80 Report:
Again, I know what you want to see--and it's bigger than just graph movement this time:


There's a lot of information here, since not only did AT take the first city in the war, eastway popped a Golden Age and revolted into a bunch of civics (giving us tech information). Here's a list of relevant information:

• AT did keep Dale, and hasn't gotten around to renaming it yet
  
• eastway got his GA from the prophet he got from the Oracle back in 600 BC, since he hasn't popped any other Great People--and don't forget this will be an extended GA from Mausoleum (9 turns, right, since quick GA's are normally 6 turns?)
  
• From eastway's civics changes, we know he has Monarchy, Civil Service and Theology--and just in case you're wondering he actually got Theology and founded Christianity in 400 BC; I just didn't notice since it was founded in one of the cities we don't have visibility on and I wasn't checking the event log every turn (mainly since I didn't think someone with a religion already would bother to research Theology in 400 BC ). Of course the more troublesome part of this is that he already has Civil Service; I thought he would have had to avoid that to get everything else
  

Now to the number-crunching:




Surprisingly, AT actually netted an axe's worth of power this go-around, although some of that was gaining Dale (a size 9 city last turn--how much pop do cities lose when you capture them?)--I would ask how much eastway lost, but rivals actually gained 5k this turn--maybe the big fighting happened last turn, and this turn was mainly cleanup covered by reinforcements? The graph delay somewhat hurts here--I would say espionage should allow you to know each person's power score, but this is a quirk unique with PBEM (and sequential Pitboss?). Anyway, onto domestic stuff:


I did both my whips as I planned--and as expected Starkfort's overflow will allow me to complete the Praet in one turn. Otherwise, not much here--not sure where the new worker is going though--I think he might move NW onto the jungle and road it, as part of making a road to Grapp Keep (the banana worker can road a turn to avoid wasting a turn on the way to the sugar--and the sugar is the ultimate destination for the new worker as well I think). I also need to decide on whether I want to build a Granary, Library, or Monument first for Grapp Keep--part of that will probably be decided by how fast Grapp Keep grows with the Banana, Fish, and eventually Sugar being worked--I think the Library's the right choice, since I have a lot of chops going into Grapp Keep in the near future, and I'm going to cottage it up, meaning the monument's a waste of hammers, especially since I don't think I need the ivory right away, and I'm certainly not short on useful tiles.


Lots of growth happening this turn--the only city not growing this turn is Grapp Keep, and that just grew last turn. As expected, the Library's almost done now, the archer's coming along nicely, and that's another Praet finishing--2 Praets should do a decent amount to my power ranking, and all this turn's Praets are heading south to the front lines. A quick question though: can I irrigate the hill rice? I don't think so (like how cities on hills don't spread irrigation), but I haven't dealt with resources on hills before


Plot twist! Yeah, I 2-pop whipped a Praet in Hartschild too--it regrew the first pop point immediately, and it should have a decent amount of overflow to either put into another Praet/Cat or some infrastructure (a Courthouse most likely)--honestly, I should just have Hartschild just keep pumping out military until I take peace (which will be either when I take Brithombar or AT signs a peace deal, whichever happens first). That makes 3 Praets, which leads to a 24k power increase--that certainly helps my perception problems and gets me out of last place

I'd post the rest of the graphs, but my internet's performing like crap (or at least Dropbox is), and it's mostly what you'd expect from the demos--eastway's GNP and production are through the roof, both because of the GA and Bureaucracy, and mine's still in the gutter. They're in the Dropbox as always if you really need to see it, but now I need to just relax

[Cheater Hater]

Early turn today, but I don't have time for the full report at the moment, so here's a preview:

• B4ndit actually gave me open borders! And yet he still hasn't closed borders with eastway
  
• No real combat it seems like on the eastway/AT front, although eastway's power went down in the graph
  
• Isengard has 3 Axes, 2 Chariots and an Archer--that's a lot more than I expected (though none of the axes are promoted, so that stack went elsewhere)
  
• Lots of little optimizations domestically--for example, I'm building a Barracks in Norende instead of just another Praet since I can 2-pop whip the Barracks but not the Praet
  
• I get Civil Service at EOT, and now I need to decide when I'm revolting to Bureaucracy--I can actually 2T Metal Casting at my current research level (though just barely) so that's interesting as well.
  

[Cheater Hater]

T81 Report:
No real war action I can see, and the demos haven't changed much, so let's start with domestic stuff!


But first, B4ndit finally decided to offer open borders to me--I obviously accepted, and can move the warrior that was in Miasma Woods towards B4ndit now. Now to domestic stuff!


Not much new here--another Praet, another Worker, starting the long process of the Library in Grapp Keep, etc


That's surprising--eastway still has a decent force in Isengard. Still, I think I can wait until I have a decent force up on my hill (right now I just have two Praets), then possibly start advancing again--we'll see how both southern sides of the war play out before I make any commitments


Lots of minor optimizations here--I'm building a Barracks in Norende instead of another Praet since I can actually 2-pop whip this next turn (Norende grows into unhappiness next turn), while I can't 2-pop whip the Praet. Similarly, moving tiles around in Miasma Woods means I can both grow next turn and finish the library, though I have to not work the grassland village for a turn to do so. The main question over here is what I build next in Florem and Miasma Woods. I think I have to build either a Courthouse or Forum in Miasma Woods next--I'm getting two or more chops in the coming turns, so I might even be able to do both if I throw a whip or two in (since there's a ton of food around it, I could even transition it to be my next GP farm). As for Florem, I have no idea what to do there--the Lighthouse isn't that useful (with only 3 water tiles), the Courthouse/Forum are expensive, and military is both expensive and far away from the conflict. Honestly, I think the best thing for Florem to build (and put chops/whips into) is a Forge, which won't come for a couple turns--heck, I'm considering building wealth for a turn or two before I finish Metal Casting, but that seems like a horrible idea and probably should just be putting a couple hammers into an archer or Praet instead.

The last two things I need to figure out is what tech I'm researching next and when I'm revolting into Bureaucracy (and if I'm changing into Caste System at the same time). The tech is easy; unless something drastically changes I'm moving to Metal Casting, and can even finish it in two turns at the current tech rate (which is barely sustainable). When I'm revolting is more interesting, my choices are basically now, a turn or two from now, when I get Monarchy, or when I next get a golden age. I think the answer is that I have to do it now--I'm getting a lot of stuff from Bureaucracy, and I don't think anything crucial is completing next turn, and I don't think I want to use my next Great Person for a Golden Age anyway--I think it's destined for Hartschild's Academy.

[Cheater Hater]

Another turn played, but I don't really feel like reporting though--lots of important stuff happened this turn though:

• Twinkletoes and AT both signed peace with eastway--each one got a city in exchange (AT got K, Twinkletoes got P). I'm assuming eastway offered both deals, but I don't know for sure.
  
• eastway didn't offer a deal to me, but I offered peace if he pays me 50 gold--I'm worried the reason he made peace with the more powerful players is that he wanted to focus on wiping me out though
  
• I did revolt to Bureaucracy--I was second in GNP before revolting though, and after the turn rolled I'm actually only 15 behind the leader (still eastway it appears--though I think he just finished a tech).
  
• After ending turn, I finally got Judaism spread in Florem!