[SPOILERS] ARRR Ye Scurvy Dogs! Hannah the Irin

[Mardoc]

Nice updates. I'd like to say more, but I'm busy with RL at the moment.

I wouldn't place a high priority on Mind Stapling: Saverous is good but not great, and I'm not a fan of the "go nuts just when you need them most" feature of Lunatics and Asylums.

Fair enough, RL > civ. I appreciate the time you can spare.

I'll also take your advice here; after Priesthood comes in this turn, I will take a break to save up cash (and build an Academy), then it'll be on to Optics. Perhaps I'll sneak in an econ tech or two.

I've got this much negotiated with Thoth so far:

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]I'll be blunt, my main worry about giving you water mana is that you'll use it to foreclose my options for peaceful expansion; in particular I'm worried about the desert in between us and the coastline to the east, both of which are currently uninhabited.

If we can come to a reasonable agreement for spheres of influence, then I'd be willing to send you water mana in exchange for an early open borders and a future undetermined date call on your life mana for 10 turns. I have no desire for you to delay sailing; quite the contrary, in fact. I'd rather look for positive-sum agreements than negative or even zero-sum ones. There's still 3 and a half foreign civs that we can be negative with .

I am also potentially interested in that incense, but not as a temporary loan; perhaps what makes sense there is for me to connect another happiness resource for trade; I should have some sugar available once I finish de-jungling the site.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Hi, I don't think you need to worry about me settling that desert. Even after it gets Springed the lack of food (or any other resources) make that area of very low value to me. At the moment I do not have any plans to settle southwards down your peninsula so I think we can easily reach an amicable border agreement (assuming of course that there isn't a triple wet corn site just out of my current vision range )

Incense for Sugar would be acceptable to me however, I won't be able to hook up the incense for at least 10 turns so there is no rush for you to get an extra Sugar connected for trading purposes.

Water Mana for 10 turns starting on turn 120 in exchange for Open Borders now (with a no scouting clause and ROP for Lanun units along the path indicated by the blueish lines in the attached screenshot and an agreement that the Lanun will not attempt to construct any roads within Malakim territory) and a later loan of Life Mana is acceptable, but I would like atleast a 5 turn notification before the Life mana loan begins in case I need to adjust any plans that might require a source of Life mana.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Alright, I think we have a deal. I'll propose Open Borders in game, which is understood to also encompass everything in "Water Mana for 10 turns starting on turn 120 in exchange for Open Borders now (with a no scouting clause and ROP for Lanun units along the path indicated by the blueish lines in the attached screenshot and an agreement that the Lanun will not attempt to construct any roads within Malakim territory) and a later loan of Life Mana, but Lanun will provide at least 5 turns notification before the Life mana loan begins."

I acknowledge that the desert in my peninsula is not a very valuable area, but it is a strategically valuable location for me (a desert highway for a potential Malakim invasion force makes me nervous, even if said force is only potential) and hence a sensitive area. Plus, of course, plains have more value to me as well, due to the hammer lightness of my civ.

Although it won't affect the question of the water mana deal. I would still like to discuss equitable settling arrangements to the further east, past your pig/incense city of indeterminate name. I could fit in a number of useful coastal cities over there. Perhaps a continuation of the border at the latitude of that city's current southern border (the line between the pigs and the shipwreck)?[/COLOR]

This settling deal, should he choose to accept it, will give me two sites, including the Remnants; the line passes just north of the Guardian of Pristinus Pass, actually.

In other news, both Comrade and Electron were founded this turn! Which puts me to 8 cities to Thoth's 10 and Sir Yellow's 2. The workboats continue exploring, and among other things, this island keeps going on and on! And getting better in the process .





The Giant attacked my settler-escort stack last turn, and the Warrior did enough damage as he died that I decided to take the risk and take out the Giant - he's demonstrated that I can't count on him to hinder Thoth coming south, so he's just a nuisance. I also thought I'd get more XP than I ended up getting, only 3 XP on the warrior who finished him off.

And, I found an amusing bit of data leakage from civ - I always play with tile yields on, and there turns out to be a BFC in the desert where each square gets 1 commerce - definitely something that only Malakim can get. I think I know the location of Thoth's recently captured Barb city, and the one that gives him a desire for water mana

[Mardoc]

All the news in T105 is foreign, it appears. Thoth accepted Open Borders, boosting my income by 8 gold/turn. Now that foreign trade is significant, I'm considering strongly both Sea Havens and Trade/Currency as research goals.

Also, I'm not sure where, but contact was gained with the Elohim. I sent WarriorKnight a greeting message.

And, Irgy's founded the Ashen Veil. The AC jumps as well, prompting the first armageddon message.

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Greetings from the land of the seafarers! I'm not sure precisely where we met, but I noticed in game that we have contact now, so I thought I'd open up diplomatic relations. The Lanun homeland is a peninsula in the far southwest end of the continent, and our only direct neighbor appears to be the Malakim.

There's not a lot in particular going on in the land of the Lanun - it's pretty standard running just as fast as I can and watching Thoth keep pulling away in every category, regardless. After he just created 10 shiny new OO priests, though, I'm not inclined to challenge him any time in the near future.

You're the third civ I've met; I've been in contact with Thoth and Sir Yellow, although it appears that Sir Yellow's not long for this world regardless. I'd be interested to hear your take on that war; from my perspective it was a combination of border conflicts and opportunism on Thoth's part that sparked it, and Sir Yellow was woefully underprepared and has paid for his lack of preparation.

From what I know, we're unlikely to come into conflict anytime soon, so instead I'd like to look for opportunities to cooperate. I will shortly be in possession of extra Pearls for trade, for instance.

Finally, I'd like to take this opportunity to urge you to join us in the worship of Those Who Dwell Beneath. If we can appease these entities sufficiently, they will do us the honor of eating us first. Ia, Ia Cthulu Ftaghn! Phnglui mglw nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah nagl fhtagn![/COLOR]

In lesser news, Priesthood has been finished; Phoenix starts immediately on a Cultist, while Phiber Optik has one remaining turn on its Elder Council before we start it on a Cultist as well. The first two will head to the north, the Malakim treaty area, the next two to the east, and then I'll catch up the cities that already have culture and the cities to be founded.

[Sciz]

zalgo

he comes

[Mardoc]

And...I'm back to questioning my tech route. I think I will absolutely go Masonry next, it's a cheap price for the ability to improve two Marble tiles and speed along Heron Throne. After that...I could go straight for Optics for contact and circumnavigation. I could go Writing -> Trade and/or Currency, now that I have foreign trade available and a lot of cities. Or there's a number of useful military techs out there - Horseback Riding -> Archery -> Stirrups, up the religious tree to Fanaticism, Knowledge of the Ether -> Elementalism -> Sorcery; over to Ashen Veil for a second religious option.

At the moment, I'm thinking what makes sense is to grab Trade and Currency, so long as I can talk WarriorKnight and/or Irgy into opening borders (no current contact with Irgy, but should contact him in 7-8 turns if the coastline is unobstructed). Combine those with the Great Lighthouse and we'd be looking at 5 trade routes in almost all of my cities; add in Sea Havens and we're talking serious cash - 15 gold/turn/city, easily. That's as much as my current GNP! If I can get enough trade partners, that is. Part of the reason for grabbing these first, of course, is to speed up the rest of my teching.

I am down to 35 turns to prepare enough of an army to either withstand or deter Thoth; probably the most logical thing there is Stygians, since I'll be spreading OO temples everywhere, anyway. Fanaticism is down to 11 turns at my current max research rate (or 15 at break even), which will only improve as my cities grow and my trade routes grow with them. The other approach that makes sense to me would be Horse Archers or Chariots, which require Horseback Riding (and stables), Archery, and Stirrups, but without a reliable source of collateral, that route could be painful.

Hmm. When I phrase it that way - probably the logical short term path is something like Masonry -> Writing -> Horseback Riding -> Trade -> Construction. Chariots would be quite decent, especially on the defense with roads on my side, it would boost my income at the same time, and leave room for Fanaticism as well. Somewhere in there, slip in Optics, Hunting, and Knowledge of the Ether. Maybe Way of the Wicked, just to unlock Scourge and Slavery, or Warfare so that I can go into Conquest. Siege Workshops would also give me an emergency source of collateral that doesn't wipe out all my workers' production. Come to think of it, I should definitely get KoTE before Optics, so that I can use a Fair Winds caster on my exploring ships; I probably can't have enough of those, since they'll all upgrade to Maelstrom, which is also a very nice spell.

Yeah, Stygians, Mobility Cultists, and Chariots - that's a decent army. It can stay out of range of any of Thoth's collateral, too! With Bronze Warriors/Drowns as a last resort militia. It's essentially certain that I won't have any mages in time, but I can at least use Adepts to prepare the battlefield. I still don't think I can risk an offensive war at this time, but if I can persuade Thoth into looking elsewhere, then things ought to improve with time.

Ah, too many choices, and they're not getting easier fast enough.

Anyway, have some more diplo:

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Greetings mARRRdoc!

I'm also not quite sure how we contacted each other, but since we have contact now we might as well not worry about that. In either case, welcome to the lands of the Elohim! We are located roughly ESE of the Malakim, to the south of the Bannor. You we're the last civ for me to contact, so I've met everyone now. The two civilizations that your missing contact with (the elves and the Sheaim) can be found to our N-NE and our SE respectively.

In terms of events, there's not much happening with the Elohim either. Thoth does seem to be in the driver's seat ATM in the demographics, although once everyone else gets Tier 3 units his multiple priests won't be as impressive as they are now.

My take on the Malakim/Bannor war is pretty much the same as yours. Sir Yellow wasn't prepared for it and the future threat of Crusade is always on everyone's mind. I don't know how long he'll remain alive for but I don't have high hopes that he'll be around for too much longer.

I would be happy to look for ways to co-operate with you. Sadly I don't have anything to trade for pearls as the only duplicate happiness resource I'll eventually have is wine, which I'm fairly certain everyone else has anyway. Instead, how would you feel about Open borders?

Your invitation to worship OO is intriguing. I'm going to have to decline though as we Elohim prefer the constant state of Order. Only with Unquestioning Obedience to Junil can we fulfill our purpose in Erubus (or whatever we called this landmass) and achieve enlightenment. Perhaps you should share your incantations with the Malakim. I hear they also want to be eaten by undersea monsters someday[/COLOR].

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]It's likely that my work boat saw one of your units or was seen, but passed on by before my brain acknowledged that fact. Upon looking at the save again, the only candidates I see are a lizardman and a Hill Giant, however, so it doesn't quite compute; I know the Pact of the Nilhorn is unbuilt, but maybe you've captured a giant? Hopefully there is nothing blocking the coastline between its current location on the southern coast and the Sheaim at least.

It's true that Spiritual is of lesser importance by the time Priests are no longer the gods of the battlefield; the trick is surviving that long and still being viable :-). I do congratulate you on your apparent dominance until just recently. It's hard to compete with the growth rate of captured cities.

On the subject of the Bannor, rumor has it that the Elves are planning to stab him in the back. Do you know anything about this, perhaps from an Elven point of view?

Our borders are always open to those who ask, although you should know that I just finished negotiating Open Borders with Thoth, so my trade routes are currently maxed out. Or do you mean to require Pearls as the price of opening your borders? I confess, I can read that paragraph both ways, and would like clarification. Do you have a coastal city through which we could trade?

And, if you should choose to suffer in a world gone mad after our people have achieved sweet oblivion, we will not hinder your choice. Just know that it is never too late to ask the Old Ones for surcease.[/COLOR]

[DaveV]

Another consideration that would argue for horse units: 3 moves + sea control + raiders = profit from pillaged coastal tiles. Also, they're one of the earliest available defenses against Pyre Zombies.

Perhaps you should be talking up the incredible scariness of the Sheaim with the other players. If Irgy is planning to raise the AC, it will be a pain for everyone. And, of course, the best way to stop him is to raze his AV cities and kill his Prophecy Marked units. Since you're so far away, it will be difficult for you to do anything about him, but it would be very much to your benefit for the other players to build up for war against him (while you continue to spam cities).

[Mardoc]

Huh, I didn't even think about the do unto others aspect of Chariots; I was too busy thinking about 'don't be done unto' . But yes, that makes sense.

The biggest problem I see with trying to talk up the Sheaim as a threat is that Irgy's currently 4th in score, barely above the elves. It would be quite valuable to focus people's attention away from me, if it could be done, but I don't have any good ideas. Actually, what I'm hoping to manage somehow is a mutual defense pact vs. Thoth with either WarriorKnight or Nyktorion; the trouble is WarriorKnight has Sanctuary, so might not want it, and Nyktorion is apparently untrustworthy (assuming that Sir Yellow is trustworthy, anyway), so it might not do any good.

I also thought of a secondary benefit to heading to Trade, with a possible detour for Way of the Wicked - that leaves me open to grab Esus real quick. Getting Nox Noctis would also really help for deterrence purposes, I should think . It might even be more valuable and hence urgent than the Necronomicon, and maybe I should divert the Priest in training to Nox Noctis instead. This assumes I am, in fact, first to the tech, but if I head right there, it's probably reasonably safe to assume.

On the homefront, I decide to spend an additional turn saving money, since I expect my Sage for Academy to be born next turn, improving my multiplier considerably. I also managed to hook up the Pearls by Thoth, and immediately offer them in trade for his gold. Assuming he accepts, I'll have to readjust my cities next turn to allow them to grow.

I finally found the end of the island, and it is a very nice hunk of land! It looks like I'll be able to fit in 4-5 cities no sweat. The cows are the only *new* resource, but of course even duplicates might become new resources via trade, and tile yields are excellent too. There are both Lizards and Skeletons on the island currently, but I haven't seen anything scarier than that, which Bronze Warriors ought to be able to handle.



And some more diplo, in which very little is said:

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]OK, I think then what happened is that my hawk saw your work boat (I'm guessing the LoS from hawks doesn't disappear until I take another turn). Sadly Hill Giants are beast units and can't be captured until end game anyway. Best of luck to your work boat as it tried to outrun vicious sea monsters that want to devour it (actually, isn't that what you want, being eaten by sea monsters?)

I don't think I was ever in that dominant a position, but thanks nonetheless. You seem to be doing quite fine yourself, and the Lanun will only continue to get stronger over time (which sadly can't be said about me).

From what I can tell, the Bannor settled quite aggressively towards both the elves and the Malakim. Thoth obviously decided to do something about that, and if what your saying is true (I haven't heard anything else about it) then the elves might also .

I didn't mean to say that pearls were the price for me to open my borders, rather that it was a separate proposal. Although on closer inspection I also have my trade routes maxed out, so we can probably live without OB for a while. Pearls would be nice but like I said before I have nothing to give you for them, and happiness isn't a huge problem for me right now. I will eventually have a city on the southern shoreline to trade with you from but not for a while yet.

And I hate to disappoint you but debating on the lore isn't really my thing, so I hope you don't mind if I concede that argument to you. (although Order still rules! )[/COLOR]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Sounds good. And yeah, the religious debate kinda took on a life of its own, didn't it? I went OO mainly so that I'd have an option for an emergency army if Thoth came south, and then he declared war on Sir Yellow. Now that he's OO, too, I probably have to stay OO in order to counter it, but I have no particular attachment to those tentacled horrors. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he decides to swap to something else as his spiritual self.

I heard of the elven backstab from Sir Yellow - so either it's real and there's nothing he can do to stop it, or else he's being paranoid and surrendered his capital to Thoth for no particular reason. Ironically, getting his army away from the sea may have been the wisest thing for him to do in any event, now that Thoth could Tsunami it to death.

And, I'd be happy to open my borders in anticipation; now that I have some foreign trade, Currency and Trade take on a new importance in my eyes :-). The other thing that might accomplish is to limit the benefit Thoth gains from my routes.

I suppose the other subject worth broaching is mana trades - aside from Water, which you already have, I have access to Sun (the Mirror is in my empire), Air, Chaos, and whatever I decide to turn my nodes into. I know you have Nature from your palace which interests me (although not yet). Similarly, if you get your hands on any happiness resources or other things I might find of interest, the Pearls will be there, waiting[/COLOR].

[Mardoc]

Ok, this was a good turn. First, my Sage came in for the Academy, putting me finally within spitting distance of Thoth's GNP. My next three cities are all commerce heavy, too, so I might even pass him. Captain Crunch finishes the settler for the sugar site, and takes a 1 turn break to grow, then it's on to the next settler.




After some discussion with WarriorKnight, we concluded by opening borders, so that ought to help the situation as well.

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Fair enough. I went for Order since, despite being a decent religion to run, no-one else has gone for it yet in a RBFFH game. The fact that it spreads around very quickly is also a nice benefit.

The elven war seems to be official since nyktorion declared on the Bannor last turn. With only 2 cities left and enemies on both sides, I think he's on his way out of the game (although I can't be sure as I lack knowledge on the tactical situation).

I didn't think open borders worked that way, since in the imports/exports tab you can have a negative number (more exports than imports) which means that you get trade routes with whoever you sign with. Either way, I'd be happy to sign OB with you. Unfortunately I forgot to offer it on my turn, so could you do offer it instead?

As for mana trades, I would be interested in trading for your Sun mana at some point in the future. It's worth noting that aside from my palace mana I'll eventually have the Life mana from the Tomb of Sucellus if your interested (although Life mana generally isn't that useful). Otherwise it'll be whatever I convert my mana into.

I'll keep in mind that you have pearls available to trade, and see if I can find something to trade to you for them.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Now that you mention it, I think you're right, the only way to deny Thoth the use of my cities for trade would be to close my borders, which would be a bit too obviously hostile. He makes me nervous.

I imagine your Life mana might be useful against your Zombie-loving neighbor . At least, that seems to be the best way to handle Pyre Zombies short of avoiding the war in the first place. I'll bear the possibility in mind for the future (apparently neither of us has a large stock of unpromoted Mages lying around )

I think we've discussed just about everything worth discussing at the moment, anyway. I'll propose Open Borders when the save comes back around, and probably won't have much more to say until something happens in game. Of course bring up anything you want, if I'm cutting you off early.[/COLOR]

Doing the diplo rounds, I note that Sir Yellow is down to his last city, and surprisingly, somehow, I have trade with him again?!? I'm guessing it's through Malakim territory to a port, then along the north coast. I seriously consider shipping him copper again, but I don't think I can really risk pissing off both Thoth and Nyktorion just to slow his exit from the game. If I could keep him around indefinitely, or if I'd built an army by the point, then I'd do it anyway.

Probably as a result, Sir Yellow comes by with a last message

[COLOR="Cyan"]Hey, wanted to talk and share information before i vanish into obscurity.

The main question on my mind is if Nyktorion and Thoth have been working togheter all the time and have planned to split my territory. Thoth's units have ceased to follow me minus a rather large battle during the pursuit, so it's all against the elves from here.

How much have you been chatting with Thoth during the war? I'm curious to what his next choice is and the large amount of cultists tells me he's planning to invade you in the long run.

Another thing i'm puzzled at is the huge army Nyktorion has whipped out (was the largest before the mass cultist arrivals), he could easily have taken my lands with a smaller one. So the question is what is he going to use it at if it isn't to take on Thoth (or of it is a deterrent).[/COLOR]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]I have talked some with Thoth, and arranged a few deals that hopefully make him think a little before invading me - Gold for Pearls, a border agreement, open borders. Several bonuses in there that he can't get by just taking my land. Plus, well, without coves or the Lanun ocean food bonus, my land is pretty bad; most of my food comes from the sea. That said, I need an army for true security, and you're right, a large amount of cultists scare me silly.

He hasn't been willing to share much about what's going on in the war, so I can't answer the question of a collaboration with the elves. He did say the purpose of the cultists was to crack your capital, since he had no other collateral. Of course, he'd say that regardless of their true purpose, I'm thinking. I think that may be why he hasn't invaded your remaining territory, though, I'm pretty sure your last cities are not coastal, so there's not much he can do against them.

I'm definitely planning to ramp up army production significantly in the next dozen turns or so. Bronze Warriors can be effective, but they don't look like much power on the graph. I'll be heading for an army made of chariots, Stygians, and Cultists, with perhaps some catapults, drowns, adepts, etc, in the wings. And enough of a navy that he can't just water walk to me. I see no way to invade him successfully, but hopefully I can at least deter him from coming south. I don't know how effective that army will be long term, but it should at least be able to handle the army he wrecked you with, Cultists and swords.

You're welcome to come hang out in my thread once you leave the game, although I don't know how invested you'll be anymore. Or you could just go be a general lurker, and taunt me with my ignorance .

I will say - I'm glad I'm not Nyktorion's neighbor. Thoth is scary enough on his own. I'm certainly keeping my fingers crossed that the elven invasion was just opportunistic and that Thoth will have to keep an eye over his shoulder if he wants to come south.[/COLOR]

I'm getting to be solidly 2nd in all categories, except Power. Which is definitely going to have to change. Drastically. In the next 30 turns. Otherwise I expect Thoth to cut me down to size instead of tolerating a challenger. I figure the only reason I'm not 2nd in score is that so much of my territory is not land, but Thoth won't be fooled by that.

In other news, my workboat circling the island notices a hut . Assuming it's not a map, anyway, that'll be a nice prize to pick up. My Trireme is going to explore around Brigit, and assuming he doesn't find anything, will then head to the east to be available for ferry duty onto the island.

As much as I want the Remnants site, it's really indefensible, so I think my expansion will have to shift onto the island instead of over there. I'm pretty sure I could plant a city, just not sure I could keep one. Maybe after I either fight a successful war with Thoth or get an NAP-extension.

[Mardoc]

Alright, I'm firmly in 2nd place in thread views, too. Thanks to all you lurkers!

That leaves one more place to figure out what Thoth's doing that I'm not

[NobleHelium]

He's engaging in wars and you're not.

[DaveV]

without coves or the Lanun ocean food bonus, my land is pretty bad

The coves stay if your city is conquered, which is a good argument for letting you expand and grow your coves, then taking them away.

I guess the best thing for you would be if Thoth and Nyktorian go to war now. Any feel for the relationship between them? If Thoth is pulling back to give Nyktorian a free shot at the remaining Bannor cities, that's a bad sign.