[spoilers] pindicator goes off the deep end

[pindicator]

Yuri's response:

Hey Pindicator,

Thanks for your kind words. You executed the attack perfectly, I
didn't realise how huge your force was until the very last moment. I
honestly thought it was going to be close in cities defended by 2
Longbows, I didn't expect it to be a slaughter

I understand your point about needing to make serious gains in the war
to make it worthwhile. However, I hope you understand me as well: I
need to retain as much of my land as possible. I honestly think giving
up 6 cities would be too much. For example, I believe I will be able
to hold Cuzco: you need at least 3 turns to reach it, that's 3 turns
to build up defences, and its 60% cultural defence will make killing
its defenders much more difficult. Also keep in mind that I'm not that
far away from Machinery and Crossbows, who are the natural counter for
zerkers

Here is my offer

* I gift you 4 cities: 3 on the starting island (except Cuzco) and
Corihuayrachina
* We sign a NAP for 30 turns
* We sign open borders, and I gift you 4 Workers

Of course, all of this is negotiable. But I'm not ready to part with
more than 4 cities at this point. If you feel that's too few, we will
have to stay at war for the time being

Let me know what you think, and thanks for being ready to discuss peace

[pindicator]

Thoughts about Yuri's response...

• This is very close to what I was aiming for when I started the war. I was lucky on the first turn, but attacking longbows in culturally strong cities is going to take losses. I'm very tempted to take the deal.
  
• 4 cities + the 2 I've already captured will bring me up to 24 total. Rego is sitting at 22 right now. Total # of citizens: Rego is 140, I am 116; a difference of 24 citizens. Accepting this should bring me over (or very close).
  
• I don't know where the other two cities on his mainland are or anything else about them...
  
• I'm considering asking him to throw a settler or two in. It would be nice to "make up" for burning Ica. (Although conversely, I had always planned on burning Ollantaytambo, so that's a win.) I don't think I'll need 4 workers; I'm running out of things to do with my current work force.
  
• What's the tech situation going to be like in 30 turns? I have to think it'll be Galleons, Frigates, and gunpowder units. Which honestly, would be about when I'd want to come back to finish the job. Also, which of us is likely to be strong in 30 turns?
  
• Unit Cost is at 22gpt. However, Unit Supply is at 15gpt.
  
• Accepting this deal will deny me any pillage gold. I was planning on using that to fund another turn or two of 100% research.
  

A question for lurkers: what are the mechanics regarding culture and gifted cities? If I let him keep Cuzco is it just going to dwarf the other cities' culture? Or do the gifted cities retain their culture, but instead have it transfer to my ownership?

[NobleHelium]

Gifted cities have no culture. However the gifter will lose all tile culture in the inner ring around the city, which means you'll probably hold the part of the inner ring around the newly acquired cities that is part of the last ring of Cuzco (or further out). For tiles that are part of the inner ring and are part of the second to last ring of Cuzco, it will be hard to say, as it depends on what culture generation you have in the new cities.

[pindicator]

Yeah, with him saying he has 60% defense in Cuzco it looks like that city is on its third ring of culture. I'll have a free monument, and maybe buddhism at first, but the good news is that monestaries and temples will be early builds for those buddhist cities.

I sent a note to Gaspadore, asking if they were planning on jumping in:

Hey Commodore,

I was wondering if you and Gaspar had come to a decision about joining in on the war with Yuri. He is tantalizing me with a generous offer for peace, but if you and gaspar were planning on attacking I didn't want to leave you two to face his armies alone. (Plus I'd love an excuse to keep playing with berserkers!)

Pindicator

[pindicator]

Commodore's response:

Hey Pindicator,

By all means, take the generous offer, we weren't positioned to fight a massive war in his direction anyway. Now if you want to take the Danegeld off of Yuri and spin around to hit Rego, we're able to help far more, our military is facing that way as are our new caravel production, forcing Rego to burn his golden age on war production would be a victory in and off itself. Let us know what you think.

Cheers,
-Commodore

I had to look up Danegeld, and feel silly that he's dropping norse references instead of me. Dang, I gotta up my game.

[luddite]

One possibility is to accept the deal, focus on tech for a while, and then you'll have a bunch of berzerkers that can be upgraded to rifles or grenadiers later. Combine them with frigates, and you don't have to worry about culture defense any more.

On the other hand, someone else might come along and completely finish off yuri...

[pindicator]

I'm definitely up for taking a deal like that in principle, but the issue is what becomes of those cities if Cuzco is allowed to stay Incan. He says that Cuzco is at 60% defenses (why isnt' he whipping walls???), so we're looking at 4th ring borders. So Cuzco culture is approximately like this:



If he has a terrace, library, & palace, and they all have their culture doubled for being 1,000 years old, then he's at 12 culture/turn. Any gift cities on the starting island would be swamped. Even if he loses the culture stored up in those tiles, Ollantaytambo wouldn't be able to push his culture back westward. And I have no idea where those southern cities are to know how they would fare.

I'm trying to think of a counter-proposal. It's going to have to involve Cuzco, though.

[NobleHelium]

Walls (and castles) don't stack with culture defense. The bombardment reduction still works, of course.

Oh and the palace doesn't double in culture.

[pindicator]

Thanks for the clarification Noble. And to all teh lurkers, thank you for rooting on the war. Even if this is as far as we go, it has been a fun ride

I have the next turn, and the next two towns are far better defended. Ollantaytambo has 3 longbows and a quechua against 8 berserkers, and Corihuayrachina has 2 longbows against 4 healthy berserkers, 1 injured, a spear & a chariot. I will need the RNG rolls to go my way in both cities to guarantee a win.

With that in mind, I have sent a response to Yuri:

Trainee captain yuris125,

I think we are on the right path for a deal. My one concern with that deal is that Cuzco is going to dominate the culture and the tiles on the island. 60% defenses mean it is dumping culture into the 4th ring, and even though gifting cities nulls the culture in the initial 9 tiles, I would shortly lose those tiles. If you have any suggestions on how I could at least keep first-ring culture in the gifted cities without taking Cuzco's tiles I would be happy to hear them.

I will agree to receiving 4 cities if you can also agree to make me a pair of settlers within 8 turns of signing peace. I am also willing to gift resources you lose from this city gifting so long as I have extras to spare.

My new proposal:

* You gift me 4 cities: 3 on the starting island (except Cuzco) and Corihuayrachina

* We sign a NAP for 30 turns
* We sign open borders, and you gift me 4 Workers
* You gift me 2 settlers, to be delivered by turn 112.
* Any luxury or health resources you lost from this war will be gifted to you for the duration of the NAP, so long as I have a duplicate to spare.

I will hold playing my next turn until I can hear back from you. I look forward to being able to turn my attention towards Regoarrarr.

pindicator

[pindicator]

Turn 104

Peace! Yuri agreed to my latest, so I have not attacked his positions this turn, but I have kept my troops in the area in case he has something in the works.

I don't know whether to be happy or not; this will be one of the moments I specifically search out for in the lurker thread after this game (or my part in it) is over. I think to continue would have been very bloody and very costly, but not impossible. I probably would have taken Corihuayrachina and had to have razed Ollantaytambo, along with the towns along his southern coast. I would have tried to fork cities, and take island cities where possible, while keeping pressure on his capital. And above all, ruling the seas. Now I am locked into 30 turns of peace, unless I want to go after Commodore's holdings around Malaka'jin.

In the end, I will have gained 6 cities, as well as 2 settlers & 4 workers gifted to me in the upcoming turns. I added the resource bit to sweeten the deal for Yuris, since it will cost me very little to do. Resources are duplicated enough in this map that trading is not an often occurrence.

All cities stopped their military builds, and I may delete a few triremes in the upcoming turns. I did delete the scout and the christian missionary, to save me 2gpt. I started the Apostolic Palace in my capital and buddhist missionaries in three towns, and buddhist temples everywhere else that can make them. With technology I picked up Aesthetics at the end of the turn; I am heading for drama for the Globe.