[SPOILERS] naufragar and Rusten get nickel-and-dimed

[Zalson]

Don’t beat yourself up. You’ve figured out the issue and this is just one city that has produced A LOT. Don’t forget to look macro.

[naufragar]

How soon do we get IW if we go that before writing? Earlier gems might help out Pajarocu. That's +2 with the forge. Our science should still be OK for a few more turns.

I don't know if getting the happiness to bail Pajarocu out is worth delaying our next great person. Although I'm not sure if it really is a delay if we've decided to go forge before library in the capital. I'll have to think about it. (And check civ later this evening.)

And Krill is probably trying to put this on me for not stopping you sooner.  

Eh, there's too much detail in these turns for me to put into a post (and I already worry I'm scaring away more casual lurkers  ), and having you log in to check the details yourself defeats the purpose of having a turn player and takes way too much of our communal time.

edit: Working furs at size 4 while getting a settler in New Viron is a possiblity to speed it up too.

"It" being Iron Working? Hmm. Pajarocu weighs heavily on my soul, but at the end of the day it is just one city. It's job is to produce an engineer and one samurai and one treb. Maybe the cap going forge before library makes IW the better choice, but I don't want to over steer.

Pseudo-edit: Thanks, Zalson. If opponents or pressure force me into a mistake, so be it, but I hate hate hate unforced errors. (The positive spin is "This is an area I didn't know I need to fix. Now I know. Now I'll fix.")

[Krill]

I merely offered naufragar the red pill, it was his own choice to stay in wonderland and see how deep the rabbit hole goes. All I'm offering is the truth, nothing more. 

Sometimes rabbit holes collapse.

[Rusten]

Yeah, don't worry about it. It's just the Scandinavian in me who can't let an opportunity for dark humour and banter pass.

Disclaimer: I've not looked at turn timings and everything related. Still trusting you to make a final decision. IW before writing would mean a forge in capital, yes. I don't think that will delay the GP much and it will increase GE% over GS%.

The 2nd draft doesn't look too bad, but I want to make sure I'm understanding the food correctly. Is it growing to full T72 with no food being wasted but just delaying growth or is it already full and the food gained that turn disappears? If it's the former I see no reason to change techs to accommodate Pajarocu as I'm totally fine with cow+engineer temporarily. The gems will bail it out eventually. OTOH it's entirely possible that IW before writing is the best play in any case. I recommend going 0% science until we have a clear idea.

I'm not sure there's any point to avoid growth though. Wouldn't it be better to have it make a settler instead so that the extra food is being used? If I'm understanding it correctly Pajarocu could be size 3 with 2 happy citizens T73. It's better to get a settler on size 3 than to sit on avoid growth at size 2 and having 2 food disappear every turn. Whip forge (and grow) --> settler (or worker). The short version is that I see no scenario where we want to use avoid growth here (edit: unless it's just to delay unhappiness without losing any food).

[naufragar]

The 2nd draft doesn't look too bad, but I want to make sure I'm understanding the food correctly. Is it growing to full T72 with no food being wasted but just delaying growth or is it already full and the food gained that turn disappears? If it's the former I see no reason to change techs to accommodate Pajarocu as I'm totally fine with cow+engineer temporarily. The gems will bail it out eventually. OTOH it's entirely possible that IW before writing is the best play in any case. I recommend going 0% science until we have a clear idea.

I'm not sure there's any point to avoid growth though. Wouldn't it be better to have it make a settler instead so that the extra food is being used? If I'm understanding it correctly Pajarocu could be size 3 with 2 happy citizens T73. It's better to get a settler on size 3 than to sit on avoid growth at size 2 and having 2 food disappear every turn. Whip forge (and grow) --> settler (or worker). The short version is that I see no scenario where we want to use avoid growth here.

I'm having to think now. Bleh. Draft one had Pajarocu at 24/24 food after we press the whip button, so I figured I'd press the avoid growth button to have it not grow into unhappiness. The thought was to put hammers into an axe for the eventual samurai upgrade. I can't work this out with a rule of thumb. I'll need to sit down to see whether its better to 1) avoid growth, wasting 2f a turn, and put hammers into an axe 2) grow into unhappiness, stall for 6(?) turns on a settler 3) grow into unhappiness, become food neutral, work on axe (least likely on the three).

I don't know what I was smoking to think we could grow to size 4 in time. We can't. That was apparently pure optimism, and I should've written that plan out to check.    So for right now, draft one is the only plan I've got. I'll toy with it some more. The upshot is, we need to one pop whip and chop the third forest.

I'm going to assume we get the gems site, which isn't yet guaranteed with Superdeath showing his interest by parking a warrior there. Operating under that assumption, I am starting to warm to IW before Writing. As you say, tech at 0% for a bit for wiggle room.

[Rusten]

 It's going to be a little raw.   Promise I'm not just pressing buttons randomly. (This time.    )

This aged well! 

I don't know what I was smoking to think we could grow to size 4 in time. We can't. That was apparently pure optimism, and I should've written that plan out to check.   So for right now, draft one is the only plan I've got. I'll toy with it some more. The upshot is, we need to one pop whip and chop the third forest.

I'm going to assume we get the gems site, which isn't yet guaranteed with Superdeath showing his interest by parking a warrior there. Operating under that assumption, I am starting to warm to IW before Writing. As you say, tech at 0% for a bit for wiggle room.

It's not impossible to grow to size 4 while being unhappy at size 3, it'll just be inefficient and slower. Depending on how many turns you spend on size 3 it's something to keep in mind. The more food overflow the better, but I'd think a chop and 1-pop whip is much better.
edit: Upon re-reading it appears you weren't concerned about unhappiness issues and it's just impossible, so scratch that suggestion. Chop+whip it is.

We should probably start sending axes and spears to the gems site right away to make our intentions clear.

[naufragar]

 It's going to be a little raw.   Promise I'm not just pressing buttons randomly. (This time.    )

This aged well! 

I legitimately laughed. Thanks, I needed that. Here's a pic from the archives (as in, didn't make it into the report): [Edit: Of course it didn't make it into the report. God damn, I'm working two unimproved flood plains while there are three unworked cottages. Nobody look at this picture, please.]



We can get an axe and spear into the area in two turns. There's a scout by SD's borders I can bring back to watch for settlers, too. Haven't seen any yet. I kind of want to kill the warrior (and then offer a cease fire, of course).

[naufragar]

Not a friendly axe, Superdeath.  



I moved the scout away. I rolled the turn and my desire to play a second turn outranked my desire to kill Superdeath's warrior, so my axe and spear sit impatiently clutching their weapons. Don't think it was a huge deal. Maybe I should have waited?


From turn 67. If the warrior's still there, I'll kill it. I don't want to waste energy guarding workers, and it's fair turn around for scaring me with axes.  

Soon we'll get a lay of the land out west.


Galley has some time, but probably only enough to get a feel for the land mass just off shore southwest.


Iron Working is currently 9 turns away. Writing is 5 turns away. I like IW. Those gems are 2/1/6 tiles?? Is that right? Yeah. Iron Working sounds lovely. (I just realized it looks like I'm trying to do break even research in the first pic. I'm not. We're at 0%.)

[naufragar]

Ancient era warfare. Low unit counts, high stakes! (We're not actually at war.)


I've split the spear and the axe because I don't want SD's warrior going on a kamikaze scouting mission. If he blew past us by going NW, he could've been a real pain, since we don't have any other metal units on hand. An enemy chariot in the fog is beyond implausible. I've highlighted these paths to show that we're ok if Superdeath's axe tries to make a run at Pajarocu. It would screw up the city's already precarious micro. (He could camp cows.) I was about to write that two C1 Shock axes could dislodge a vanilla axe on a forested hill, but after checking the odds it's actually a tiny bit precarious. I think I'd move the spear back as well. I'm assuming Superdeath doesn't take a swing at the city. I assume he keeps moving his axe to the gems to stake a claim down there. I haven't figured out our moves down here. Ancient era warfare. Tricky.

Otherwise, this was an uneventful turn. Our scouting boats didn't unfog anything new yet.

While I was thinking about where Superdeath's axe could go, I realized the axe would get to the forest hill in time to screw up chopping in Pajarocu, but this made me think that I might be able to use the two eastern forests and save the whip. I'd been saving the forests to give gems city one of those "size 1 granaries" that Rusten keeps talking about, but if the timing works...


Late notice but I'm going to be gone sometime later this week. I think from the 3-5th but maybe until the sixth. I still haven't worked out the details. The way turns have been rolling, I should be able to play a turn on the third, but I'd need a sub for the next two. Rusten (or an interested lurker) would you be up for this? I should have detailed domestic plans worked out, although you do get the joy of scouting!

[Rusten]

I'm away for most of the 5th, but I should be able to sub in any case.