This Time for Sure: Mardoc reprises the Lanun

[Thoth]

I don't think it's wise to settle our overseas cities until we have culture on the board, to allow good cove spacing and multiple coves per city.

Once we're up to 3/4 mainland cities an offshore city will pay for it's self instantly by providing an intercontinental trade route for all our mainland cities. Coves and suchlike are icing on that cake (very nice icing though ).

However, I do like OO first as that path also gets us an EC, God King, +2 happies in every city with OO and easy culture.

Plus I'd like to hopefully get Mainmast to the point of 1t Trireme and workboats, first, which means more mines. I haven't checked if that's exactly possible - but I at least think we should shift its balance toward more hammers and less food before we do a lot that isn't foodhammer.

So I'm thinking Message from the Deep first, Sailing later. We probably want to slip in Education into that path, as well, so we can start laying down cottages in our mainly land empire

Agreed we want Education somewhere in there. Either immdiately after OO or after Sailing.

I'd prefer a Galley as our ferry for the moment. We'll only be able to ferry one unit at a time, but the free sentry promotion and the extra movement make up for the loss of a cargo space. Sea Serpents appear to have 2 moves in EitB (base they only move 1). Having our first boat sunk because we didn't spot a Serpent in time would suck.

We can build 1t workboats at size 9: 1 base hammer + 1 from the Palace + 1 from Plains Wines +4 from two Pirate Ports + 9 from 3 mines= 16. +25% from the Sea Haven = 20 hammers.

Agreed we want the two remaining hills mined ASAP, that plus Pasturing the Pigs should be a priority for our two upcoming workers (our two existing workers will be busy keeping up with Poopdeck's growth). We'll also want a road connection to the Pig/Fish site, preferably before the next settler completes.

At size 9, working our current tile configuration + 1 additional mine we'll be a +15 food and 14 hammers so a total of 43 production per turn towards settlers. We can take the chop from the GHF into the settler for an additional 8 base (16 net hammers). I haven't calculated how much overflow (if any) we'll have but our next settler will take 4 possibly 3 turns to complete. I think we want a 5th worker before the settler.

So....worker/worker/warrior (grow to size 9, happy with Cotton conected )/worker/Settler. Next settler due in ~10/11 turns with full worker support and a garrison warrior or two provided by Poopdeck. We can build a 1t workboat in Mainmast to net the Fish while the settler is enroute to the Fish/Pig site (Mizzen Mast?)

[Mardoc]

Played the turn, we now have rice, nothing new otherwise. Our replacement cotton city site turns out to mess with the entire previous dotmap, both north and south, and I just don't have the energy tonight to fix it.

[Mardoc]

Once we're up to 3/4 mainland cities an offshore city will pay for it's self instantly by providing an intercontinental trade route for all our mainland cities. Coves and suchlike are icing on that cake (very nice icing though ).

That is a good point. It would also be good to start exploring for more city sites and for circumnavigation. And to find our friends. But I suppose all things considered, scouting can wait for Expansive to wear out, we can stick with just a ferry for now.

However, I do like OO first as that path also gets us an EC, God King, +2 happies in every city with OO and easy culture.

...+2 happiness in every city where we build a temple. 80 hammers ~=1 settler. 1 settler is a city that can grow to size 8 or so, between our resources and Cha - you sure it's worth building temples early?

I mean, I agree we eventually want them everywhere, and probably Pagan Temples too - but I was thinking they'd mostly wait until T72 to start on just about anything that's not a settler or support for more settlers.

Agreed we want Education somewhere in there. Either immdiately after OO or after Sailing.

So...Animal Husbandry -> Ancient Chants -> Mysticism -> Message from the Deep -> Sailing -> Education, say? I might be tempted to bump Education up, depending on how fast our cities are developing.

I suppose these techs ought to fall pretty quickly, all things considered.

I'd prefer a Galley as our ferry for the moment. We'll only be able to ferry one unit at a time, but the free sentry promotion and the extra movement make up for the loss of a cargo space. Sea Serpents appear to have 2 moves in EitB (base they only move 1). Having our first boat sunk because we didn't spot a Serpent in time would suck.

Ok, I can see it. 2/3 the cost helps, too

We can build 1t workboats at size 9: 1 base hammer + 1 from the Palace + 1 from Plains Wines +4 from two Pirate Ports + 9 from 3 mines= 16. +25% from the Sea Haven = 20 hammers.

Ah, I forgot about the Sea Haven bonus . That will greatly help.

Agreed we want the two remaining hills mined ASAP, that plus Pasturing the Pigs should be a priority for our two upcoming workers (our two existing workers will be busy keeping up with Poopdeck's growth). We'll also want a road connection to the Pig/Fish site, preferably before the next settler completes.

You're thinking Pig/Fish first? I was thinking Rice/Pig/Cove first, mostly because we already built the road in that direction. With a bit of wanting another commerce site to power through these early techs.

Although...come to think of it, we're not really that far from OO. And Pig/Fish with OO is a 2 cove site. Ok, I can swap my thinking and go south before we go north.

I think the two coastal sites are the strongest/closest at the moment, so they're #3 and #4 on the list.

At size 9, working our current tile configuration + 1 additional mine we'll be a +15 food and 14 hammers so a total of 43 production per turn towards settlers. We can take the chop from the GHF into the settler for an additional 8 base (16 net hammers). I haven't calculated how much overflow (if any) we'll have but our next settler will take 4 possibly 3 turns to complete. I think we want a 5th worker before the settler.

I'm mostly just hoping that the new cities can take over worker production duty soon. You are probably right that we need that many workers to keep up with our settler rate, but every turn we're Expansive and not popping out settlers, I cry a little

[Thoth]

...+2 happiness in every city where we build a temple. 80 hammers ~=1 settler. 1 settler is a city that can grow to size 8 or so, between our resources and Cha - you sure it's worth building temples early?

+ 1 happy from state religion, + 1 happy from having state religion with the Religion civic. No temple required. Just our free Zealot.

I mean, I agree we eventually want them everywhere, and probably Pagan Temples too - but I was thinking they'd mostly wait until T72 to start on just about anything that's not a settler or support for more settlers.

Yeah, as many settlers as we can get pre-t 70...but we'll need the odd WB/Warrior/Worker as well.

So...Animal Husbandry -> Ancient Chants -> Mysticism -> Message from the Deep -> Sailing -> Education, say? I might be tempted to bump Education up, depending on how fast our cities are developing.

I suppose these techs ought to fall pretty quickly, all things considered.

Sounds like a solid plan to me. Agreed we might want to bump Edu up before Sailing, but that's a few turns away yet.

Ah, I forgot about the Sea Haven bonus . That will greatly help.

Even more than I thought....Sea Haven's also give us -10% maint costs (were they always this good? or did that get added in Eitb?). In any event, SHs should be a priority build in any new coastal cities we build while we still have Expansive.

You're thinking Pig/Fish first? I was thinking Rice/Pig/Cove first, mostly because we already built the road in that direction. With a bit of wanting another commerce site to power through these early techs.

That was my thinking...but I'm a bit prone to tunnel vision at times. Rice/Pig/Cove may very well be better short term.

Although...come to think of it, we're not really that far from OO. And Pig/Fish with OO is a 2 cove site. Ok, I can swap my thinking and go south before we go north.

I think the two coastal sites are the strongest/closest at the moment, so they're #3 and #4 on the list.

Yeah, we want the coastal sites asap while we still have Expansive....order can be squabbled over.... :hat:

I'm mostly just hoping that the new cities can take over worker production duty soon. You are probably right that we need that many workers to keep up with our settler rate, but every turn we're Expansive and not popping out settlers, I cry a little

Poopdeck can do some fine worker/settler building at happy cap...which won't take long with Rice + Agrarian farms.

[Mardoc]

+ 1 happy from state religion, + 1 happy from having state religion with the Religion civic. No temple required. Just our free Zealot.

Ah...
And then, later, another +2 from OO temple with Religion, with Incense. Got it.

Even more than I thought....Sea Haven's also give us -10% maint costs (were they always this good? or did that get added in Eitb?). In any event, SHs should be a priority build in any new coastal cities we build while we still have Expansive.

Oh, right, Expansive is more than just settlers .

Yes, here's the old Sea Haven vs. the old Harbor:



Note that they both gained the +1 commerce to sea tiles - but Sea Haven has always had a bunch of little buffs: cheaper, more trade bonus, the boost to maintenance and the boost to naval units. The only one I'm not sure counts is unlocking Boarding Parties .

The one boost is that Sea Havens now give +1 Happy from Pearls - that's presumably to counter the fact that anyone can have Pearls now.

[Thoth]

Ah...
And then, later, another +2 from OO temple with Religion, with Incense. Got it.

Bingo.

Happy now + more happy later.

Win all around

Oh, right, Expansive is more than just settlers .

Yes, here's the old Sea Haven vs. the old Harbor:



Note that they both gained the +1 commerce to sea tiles - but Sea Haven has always had a bunch of little buffs: cheaper, more trade bonus, the boost to maintenance and the boost to naval units. The only one I'm not sure counts is unlocking Boarding Parties .

Unlocking The Singing Git isn't bad....as soon as he gets dead we can build the Shrine of the Champion.

The one boost is that Sea Havens now give +1 Happy from Pearls - that's presumably to counter the fact that anyone can have Pearls now.

Yeah, Pearls are looking pretty damn good right now....for us anyway.

[Mardoc]

Unlocking The Singing Git isn't bad....as soon as he gets dead we can build the Shrine of the Champion.

Ah, but that's the reasoning for teching Iron Working, not the reasoning for building Sea Havens.

Yeah, Pearls are looking pretty damn good right now....for us anyway.

Hmm. Y'know...I've been discounting this effect of Sailing - maybe we ought to bump it ahead of OO after all. Adding the extra pop and GNP, assuming Ichabod gave us pearls - that could be quite significant, really. And we're going to have a lot of coastline grabbed in the near future, so our odds are good. Especially when we're talking ~20 hammers for all those benefits.

I think Mysticism still comes first. The only consolation I have is that if it's this hard for me to make up my mind, imagine the dilemmas the slow techers face!

Anyway, I played the turn, got scolded for my micro and resolved to do better, and we're closer to all our goals. Nothing especially noteworthy this turn, though.

[Thoth]

Ah, but that's the reasoning for teching Iron Working, not the reasoning for building Sea Havens.

True.

Hmm. Y'know...I've been discounting this effect of Sailing - maybe we ought to bump it ahead of OO after all. Adding the extra pop and GNP, assuming Ichabod gave us pearls - that could be quite significant, really. And we're going to have a lot of coastline grabbed in the near future, so our odds are good. Especially when we're talking ~20 hammers for all those benefits.

I think Mysticism still comes first. The only consolation I have is that if it's this hard for me to make up my mind, imagine the dilemmas the slow techers face!

Anyway, I played the turn, got scolded for my micro and resolved to do better, and we're closer to all our goals. Nothing especially noteworthy this turn, though.

Agreed on Myst. It gets us some guaranteed boosts (GH plus an EC in Poopdeck for an Academy) vs a gamble on Pearls. I'd be very surprised if we don't have access to Pearls but we can get some guaranteed benefits from GK.

Then the question is OO or Sailing?

I'm thinking OO then Sailing as it gives us the best shot for founding the religion plus if we do get it, we'll have it in one of our mainland cities. Which will be easier to defend than any offshore cities.

[Mardoc]

Played the turn - worker plan goes as predicted in the south, in the east it does as well - but a pair of barb warriors showed up at EOT. I think I'm going to try to fight them in the field so that we don't slow down mining the Bronze any. We need those weapons pronto!

[Selrahc]

Ah, but that's the reasoning for teching Iron Working, not the reasoning for building Sea Havens.

You already have a big "+1 Hammer on Every Sea Tile" reason to tech Iron Working.