The Kuriotates: A Tale of Centaurs, Hubris, and Unbridled Enthusiasm

[Commodore]

Are they demons, though?

[Mardoc]

Are they demons, though?

Yes - so I suppose that's a net of -15% against Paladins. Still Str 13 Iron Pally vs Str 16 Beast, though. And buildable next turn vs. buildable in 7 turns, with what production we're not throwing into the Gate.

[HidingKneel]

Turn 72 played. First, let's check in with our war on Thoth:



He produced another warrior between turns. However, he was also attacked by a barbarian, which scratched his top defender. Excellent.

First I promoted a centaur to flanking II, and sent him in. Got a withdrawal but no damage. That's not going to do: we need to finish this off quickly and get our centaurs back on defense.

All the other centaurs I promoted to C1/shock. Lost the first one, got a lucky withdrawal with another one, and all the rest were victories :



So Thoth is now confined to his island.

I thought for a while about whether to keep the city or raze it. In the end I decided to raze it, though I think that was a mistake. It's in a nice spot, and razing it gave Bob some more manes. Well, at least the AC is now back to 0.

Looks like Loki didn't notice that worker-scout of mine up north, so I continued using it to explore. It ended turn here:



So I expect it'll be a griffon snack.

Our workers are finally done improving Killswitch:



Nice and cozy.

Now, on to the serious business. We need to get Basium ASAP if we're going to survive what's coming. With the conquest gold from Thoth, we can afford to run 100% science for a while, which will get us fanaticism by EOT 76. But production is trickier: I don't see any way we can get the gate built until EOT 81. That deadline leaves us a tiny bit of slack, though, which I'm using to build a stonewarden in Kwythellar. We've got 23 centaurs left, many of them highly experienced. I'll rally most of them there, and get them a shield of faith promotion.

I guess the question is: when do we expect Bob to strike? Unfortunately we don't have eyes on him anymore. If he waits long enough to build Mardero and four beasts, we ought to have long enough to get Basium on board, and maybe build a paladin or two. Commodore's worldspell might end up being key.

[Mardoc]

If I were Bob, I'd wait for at least two Beasts, possibly for all four. He can see from the power graph that we're stronger than we were, and he doesn't know how close that was last time. Plus - we do still have the option of going directly for Dis if he tries to do this on the super cheap - or of rocking the million warrior defense to stall, for that matter. I don't have a good feel for just how much production he has, though.

I don't think it's obvious from the outside that we're going for Basium; he might change his plans on T77 when he sees Fanaticism, if he's watching our tech. So he might feel he has the time to build a full set.

I think I would follow Commodore's advice and go for Bronze Working-> Arete after Fanaticism, though! Paramanders don't get odds, but they're a lot closer than anything else we can get on the field ASAP when we run out of Paladin slots. We might even get a couple built before Basium's iron enables Pallys.

Wait...actually, a CI Paramander, fully fortified in Kwythellar, with Shield of Faith, has Str 8 * 1+ (20%+ 30% +25% + 10%) or 14.8 effective strength against a demon. Give him CII and we'd actually have odds. Now, granted, you don't win a war on the defense - but Paramanders are better than they look.

And, of course, they're guaranteed to become Angels when they die, once Basium is on the board. So they'd work pretty well as softening up troops, too.

[HidingKneel]

A few odds and ends:

Last two turns, somebody got a great bard. So I expect either Plako or Ilios got a bard and used it to bulb the drama bard, which will likely as not get used to bulb sanitation.

Also, Bob now has two cities: looks like his culture overwhelmed that barbarian city to his north.

So, let's go over our military options. Looks to me like there are four ways we might go:

a) Bronze working -> arete to enable paramanders (1040 beakers)

Pros: Paramanders are strong vs. demons, give troops to Basium when they die. Bronze working unlocks sanitation and smelting, both useful economic techs. Also will allow us to build Bambur, who can boost our melee troops.

Cons: Paramanders require a temple of Kilmorph to be built, and we have only one of those at the moment (though we could built more quickly. They are almost as expensive (80h) as paladins (107h), and not nearly as good. My guess is that if we can manage to keep 4 paladins in play (plus more from Basium), then we'll be winning the war anyways.

b) Orders from heaven (1081 beakers)

Pros: Also unlocks a religious hero. Allows us to build confessors, which will be great for boosting the troops we already have. Also enables crusaders, which are weak but a cheap (53 hammers) way to supply Basium with angels.

Cons: All those goodies also require us to build temples, though I suppose we do get those for half price.

c) Archery -> Stirrups for centaur archers (1301 beakers)

Pros: Centaur archers are immune to first strikes, which would be fantastic against a drill-promoted Hyborem. We have lots of experienced candidates for promotions. Also, these techs are prereqs for Warhorses, which is surely the first endgame tech we want to pursue.

Cons: Of the options I'm listing, this one is the most expensive in terms of beakers. Centaur archers are also hammer-expensive (and therefore expensive options to upgrade to).

d) Masonry -> Construction for centaur chargers (540 beakers)

Pros: Cheapest option by far. Will allow us to upgrade our experienced troops to centaur chargers, who can benefit from the iron supplied by Basium. Also will allow Basium to build chariots. Unlocks sanitation.

Cons: Centaur chargers don't receive defensive bonuses. If we're hoping to hunker down in a city, this path won't help us at all.

I'm presently leaning towards d), because I think we need something in a hurry. After fanaticism, we can tech construction quickly, then shut down research for a while to accumulate gold. Once we get Basium on board, we can build paladins in our cities while using our commerce to buy upgrades.

Thoughts?

[Mardoc]

Thoughts?

I can't think of much that you haven't. Except that I have this strong temptation to go write an essay in the EitB forum about how unbalanced Hyborem is now .

But, stiff upper lip and all that. On balance, I think I agree that Lancers are the best bet to supplement Basium/Paladins. Don't put them ahead in priority, but they'll be next best.

One minor comment: Thane of Kilmorph can upgrade to Paramander, which can upgrade to Paladin; therefore Thanes can upgrade to Paladins. Might save a couple turns getting those first Pallys on the board, and let us have the free Mobility promo on them. I ran a WB test - we don't even have to have Arete researched, let alone copper hooked, to upgrade Thanes to Paladins. Just need iron and Fanaticism (and cash). There's probably a similar route to upgrading Order disciples, but I don't think it matters.

All upgrades cost 2*(hammer difference) +5 gold. So that's 85 gold to give a Centaur a Lance, and 139 gold to upgrade a Thane to a Paladin.

[HidingKneel]

One minor comment: Thane of Kilmorph can upgrade to Paramander, which can upgrade to Paladin; therefore Thanes can upgrade to Paladins. Might save a couple turns getting those first Pallys on the board, and let us have the free Mobility promo on them. I ran a WB test - we don't even have to have Arete researched, let alone copper hooked, to upgrade Thanes to Paladins. Just need iron and Fanaticism (and cash). There's probably a similar route to upgrading Order disciples, but I don't think it matters.

Are you sure that wasn't the thane -> stonewarden -> paladin upgrade path? IIRC all priest units can upgrade to paladins (even ritualists). Seems like a pretty solid option for us: free mobility promotion, possibility to accrue some xp from the potency promotion prior to upgrade. Plus the paladins retain the ability to cast the tier 2 priest spells (shield of faith, maybe later bless).

Just remembered that in addition to the +25% vs paladins, BoAs also heal completely after killing a paladin. So paladins make terrible stack defenders in this situation.

Let's see... if Bob wants a full set, that's 320 hammers, plus another 160 for Mardero. He's got two turns left of golden age. When that's over, I'm guessing his capital will have fewer than 20 base hammers. He's also in God King (+50%) with a free forge (+25%), so I'd estimate his productive capacity as somewhere in the mid 30s. He's also got a second city with more limited capacity; let's say that's going to build one of the beasts. I'd guess the construction would take him at least 10 turns (not counting transit time), which is enough time for us to get Basium out, as long as he doesn't decide to visit early.

[Mardoc]

Are you sure that wasn't the thane -> stonewarden -> paladin upgrade path? IIRC all priest units can upgrade to paladins (even ritualists). Seems like a pretty solid option for us: free mobility promotion, possibility to accrue some xp from the potency promotion prior to upgrade. Plus the paladins retain the ability to cast the tier 2 priest spells (shield of faith, maybe later bless).

No idea. I know that when I gave Kurios Fanaticism, and a Thane, and Mines of Gal-Dur, but no other tech aside from the starting tech, I was able to upgrade the Thane. I'm not sure exactly what it was doing under the hood. But I know I didn't have Priesthood or Arete (or even Way of the Earthmother) and the upgrade still worked.

Your point does suggest we could take a pitstop at Stonewarden, though, and spend 5 extra gold to give our paladins shield of faith. And maybe Medic II - not sure what happens to that when you upgrade a unit. I like that idea a lot, presuming we're not pinching pennies.

As for Paladin stack defenders - well, it depends on the circumstances. Give them the right promotions, spells, and terrain, and they'll have odds. Beasts don't heal if they die while trying to kill a Pally, after all. Take a paladin and stick him in Kwythellar with fortification and he's effective Str 23 against Beasts, even with no promotions. Build him with Apprenticeship/Conquest and let him spend time as a Stonewarden, and things get even better. No, what paladins are horrible at is softening up .

So, it's true, it's too early to despair. And again, the main thing we have to do is survive. Bob's out of tricks, and still has a pretty sad GNP; if we can survive the next 10 turns we'll pull back ahead.

[HidingKneel]

Game-mechanics question: when you upgrade a unit, does it keep its fortification bonus? (Could be important.)

It occurs to me also that construction unlocks walls. If we're still playing defense once we have a full set of paladins, those might be a useful build.
But I suspect it won't come to that. If Bob comes at us with his full strength, we'll either break him (with some combination of paladins, centaur chargers, and Commodore's worldspell), or we'll lose.

[NobleHelium]

Thanes can upgrade directly to Paramanders. Just check the 'pedia.

An upgraded unit loses all fortification bonuses.