The Kuriotates: A Tale of Centaurs, Hubris, and Unbridled Enthusiasm

[Mardoc]

Thanes can upgrade directly to Paramanders. Just check the 'pedia.

Yeah, if we have Arete and copper. My test was more concerned with upgrading to Paladins.

An upgraded unit loses all fortification bonuses.

That's unfortunate. Can't leave units as Stonewardens until the last second, then. Although - a Combat promo is worth almost as much as full fortification, so maybe in some circumstances it'll be worth doing.

Although, hmm. Paladins are also Disciple units. Maybe they could still benefit from Potency/Channelling 2?

Dang it, I'm probably going to talk myself into running another test.

[HidingKneel]

Hmm... had another look at the beginning of turn 72. I'm going to revise my ETA of Bob's forces. His city was already size 9, and he'll be getting two more manes next turn (oops ). Working an engineer, it looks like that'll give him a base of 22 hammers. Add in +50% for God King, +25% for a forge, +50% for the infernal palace, and +10% for nationhood, and we're up 52 hammers. He's got two more turns of golden age (add another 10 base hammers, bringing in an extra 23 hammers those two turns), and some amount of overflow from grimoire (let's estimate that at 22 hammers, half of his current non-military output). That's a total of 68 + 52N hammers produced in N turns. That means a full set of beasts + Mardero will be out at the end of turn 79. Assuming his stack moves 2 tiles per turn, he'll be able to hit Kwythellar on turn 84 (that's his turn 84, which comes after our turn 84), or Naggarond on turn 83.

As for us, we can have Basium out at the end of turn 81. On our turn 82, we can offer him Killswitch. If I understand the mechanics right, Commodore can accept Killswitch on his turn, and then offer us iron (and sheep). We can then accept on turn 83 and make our paladin /centaur charger upgrades. We could shave a turn off of that by pre-roading another capital site for Commodore, having him settle it on his turn and immediately offer iron, which we accept on turn 82. He'll want to settle a city on the other side of us anyway, so that Bob can't end the Mercurians by sacking Killswitch (we'll surely need Basium and his angels on the front lines).

Anyways, it's going to be tight. And who knows what Bob will do? If he builds four beasts but no Mardero, he could be arriving three turns earlier.

[HidingKneel]

If those estimates are correct, it looks like there isn't any point in teching anything after fanaticism. Right now we're getting +89 gpt running 0% science. If we tech fanaticism -> masonry -> construction (the cheapest of our options), I think we'll be able to save up about 300 gold by turn 83. We'll want to spend all of that upgrading to paladins anyway, so no gold left over to benefit from having centaur chargers. Might be better to just start saving earlier, so we can get four paladins in Kwythellar on turn 83.

[Commodore]

Bronze working not worth it for the warrior boost?

[HidingKneel]

Bronze working not worth it for the warrior boost?

I doubt it. We've got a total of four warriors right now, one per city. If one of those manages to become a top defender, we've lost anyway. Upgrading thanes to paladins will buy us a lot more than giving a warrior bronze. (And our production is high enough that there isn't much point in building more warriors; we'll switch back to conquest on turn 80, at which point we'll be at around 40htp in each city again. Those hammers would be better spent on thanes/stonewardens.)

Some more mechanics questions: is that thing about Beasts healing after killing paladins right? I got it by perusing the FFH wiki, but there's a lot of wrong/out of date information in there. I didn't see anything about it in the civopedia entry.

Also, does anybody know the exact mechanics of Basium's worldspell? The manual (also a font of misinformation) says around 50% damage to demons, but IIRC it can sometimes kill an undamaged Hyborem outright. I think the worldspell is basically our only hope. I imagine we'll need to fire it and cross our fingers that Basium, a handful of angels, 4 paladins, and 20-some centaurs will be enough to take down what remains of Bob's stack.

[Mardoc]

We will eventually want Bronze Working; Mercurian Axes are the most hammer efficient source of Angels. But I agree it can't help us on this go-round, assuming Bob moves quickly.

Remember the option to take Dis and his other city if he fails to leave behind a garrison.

Both of your questions are correct according to the manual, but I don't have any better info than that. Only remember on Basium's WS, that's the average, it's got a random component.

[DaveV]

Also, does anybody know the exact mechanics of Basium's worldspell? The manual (also a font of misinformation) says around 50% damage to demons, but IIRC it can sometimes kill an undamaged Hyborem outright.

I checked the code a while back and as I remember, spells can do up to double the nominal damage, modified by resistances and bonuses. So I'm guessing 0-100 random, +25% for holy vs. demon.

In my Adventure 3, Basium killed four out of eleven units with Divine Retribution.

[HidingKneel]

Hmm... that sounds quite strong.

Which brings me to another mechanical question: it seems to me that the play order might be extremely important. Does anybody know where Basium will be inserted in the list? I note that Bob is playing right before the barbarians, just as he was before. So did the Infernals get inserted "after the Lanun", or did they get added "last in the play order", or is it something else?

If Commodore moves right before the Kuriotates, then Basium's worldspell ought to synergize well with the fool's mate strategy: unless Bob leaves a hefty garrison behind, twenty centaurs will likely be able to raze Dis after it's hit by divine retribution. If Bob has a chance to heal up before that, though, then it's not nearly so appealing a strategy.

[NobleHelium]

New players enter the game at the end of the turn order.

[HidingKneel]

New players enter the game at the end of the turn order.

That is excellent news .

Anyway, I ran some sims using worldbuilder. Took all our centaurs, with the promotions they have now (added combat promotions for those who are available to take them). Assume fully healed and attacking on open ground.
Assume Bob brings Hyborem (C2/Drill 4), 4 beasts (C1), Rosier (C5), Mardero (C4), and 1 longbow (C1). I think that's certainly at the upper end of what he might bring. I ran five battles, first burning Basium's worldspell and then sending the centaurs in. The results:

1) We lose 12 centaurs, Bob loses everything except a beast and Rosier (both redlined).
2) We lose 14 centaurs, wiping out Bob's stack.
3) We lose 14 centaurs, Bob loses everything except for one beast (redlined).
4) We lose 7 centaurs, wiping out Bob's stack.
5) We lost 7 centaurs, wiping out Bob's stack.

And that's just with our centaurs. I even forgot to add the shield of faith to them. Add Basium/angels/paladins into the mix, and it isn't even close. Of course, if we want to hit harder, positioning could be key... especially with the angels, since they're 1-movers.

A few other things:

a) I didn't see the worldspell killing any of Hyborem's units.
b) Beasts do fully heal after killing paladins.
c) The +25% vs. paladins that beasts get is only on the attack. Paladins get pretty decent odds attacking them, even when they're at full health.