[SPOILERS] scooter's thread: England

[scooter]

I sent this off to Uberfish and DC of Germany:

Uberfish and DC, leaders of the Reich,

Greetings from England! I hope things are off to a nice start for you guys. Looking forward to this game quite a bit!

I'll get right down to business. We are obviously in the "fun triangle" of England, Germany, and France. Generally speaking, one of those three tends to get left out in the cold, and I'd like that not to be me, and I'm sure you'd like that not to be you. On top of that, there's lots of disputable territories in between us - Belgium in particular is a tricky one... So I guess I''d like to get an idea of what approach you guys will be taking on this game. Are you going to ignore your western front and focus east/south? Or are you mostly concerned with your English and French neighbors?

For me, as England, generally I need to push for an alliance with either France or Germany. The problem I see is that English-French alliances never seem to work particularly well long-term because of the close-ness of territories and such - lots of uneasiness. Germany on the other hand is quite different - it has the potential to be quite the dominant land force which is a nice contrast to England the naval powerhouse. I think an English-German alliance could go quite a long ways. Handling the French quickly is a big win for you especially as it lets you quickly turn around get get ready for potential hostilities from Russia.

So I think I've said enough. Apologies if the message is a bit forward, but I figured I'd lay my cards down on the table as it just makes it easier. Feel free to catch me on chat sometime - I should be around for much of today...

Thanks,
scooter

Will be interesting to see their response. Nakor wrote back to my message last night. My original message in spoilers for those who don't feel like scrolling up to remember what I wrote.

Hi Scooter,

It's nice to be France. Hope you're happy to play as England!

Interesting to play Diplomacy again after quite some time. Hope to have enough time between my two little kids at home and the teenagers at work (I teach chemistry at a secondary school).

Indeed there can be conflict or great friendship between our nations.
It all depends on relations with Germany for both of us, with Russia for you and with Italy for me.

Since you're the first to mail me, I think it's only fair to start thinking about an EF alliance first. And that means twarting Germany.
How does that sound to you and do you see potential in such a plan?

Cheers,
Nakor

Hi Scooter,

It's nice to be France. Hope you're happy to play as England!

Interesting to play Diplomacy again after quite some time. Hope to have enough time between my two little kids at home and the teenagers at work (I teach chemistry at a secondary school).

Indeed there can be conflict or great friendship between our nations.
It all depends on relations with Germany for both of us, with Russia for you and with Italy for me.

Since you're the first to mail me, I think it's only fair to start thinking about an EF alliance first. And that means twarting Germany.
How does that sound to you and do you see potential in such a plan?

Cheers,
Nakor

I'm going to wait and see what Germany says to me before deciding how to advance with this situation. I'm open to working with either one honestly. England-Germany is probably more sustainable long-term though in my opinion.

[scooter]

Oh, this was the message I got from Lewwyn:

Scoota baby,

Austria been getting crunk. Peeps be like sharks circlin' my ass. I only be chillin'. These fools wanna run me, crunk ain't dead. I give you props homes, you be running these guys from E-land like they be gold diggas. Bring me back some of that chive, bra.

Hit my pager like its hot when you need a friend, and I'll shank a fool.

Word to yer mom,
Lewwyn and his Dance Advisers Hip and Hop

This reminded me immediately of a Jeff Dunham bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4O4WiCfGow

Skip to the 3 minute mark to see the relevant part. This message immediately made me think "dontchu eva do dat again!"


I'm trying to draft a message back in the same style just for laughs, but I'm finding it to be difficult. Have to say, that was one of the more amusing diplo messages I've gotten in a long time. I don't that much about Lewwyn's personal life, but the message just screamed white guy in his 30s trying to write gangsta, which is what immediately sent me to youtube to search for that video. Good stuff.

[scooter]

Ok, finally wrote something back to Lewwyn:

Wwyn to the Le,

Sup yo. E-Land is pretty ballin this time 'o year, so if a brotha eva need some time away, gimme a ring yo. All 'a the homies love chillin in de London. We got mad fish and chips, thats wassup.

Alright, those sentences honestly took me 10 minutes to write, so I'm going to give it a rest and hand it to you if you are really doing that style for everyone. It made me laugh quite a bit, and I have to say it's the most amusing message I've gotten in quite awhile! How do things look in Austria? How does Russia and Turkey seem? Well I hope things are going well. I'm not sure if/when our paths will intersect given our distance from each other, but if things go well for both of us, I hope we get a chance to work together.

Any interesting gossip thus far? What's the word on the street? I figure you probably have the best idea of what the word on the street is

scooter

Mostly just pleasantries and failing miserably at imitating his gangsta style. Mostly trying to make nice with people and get a feel for what's going on in the world, but my biggest concern is France and Germany. I need to keep in touch with Italy as well, as Rowain could play a critical role in in western European affairs if he chose to. It's the one perk of playing Italy - you can interfere with the western group or the eastern group, or both, and you can feasibly work with anyone. It's why Italy is probably easier to play than Austria, despite Austria being more possible to win with.

[scooter]

Was working on a reply to Rowain, when I decided to send something off to Regoarrar:

Regoarrar,

I know we sort of had a mini-chat the other night, but I figure it's about time to send you a formal greetings. This is not a particularly urgent message, as I'm sure you are more concerned about dealing with the powder keg that is the Black Sea and the Balkans. You certainly have more pressing issues than the English, but nevertheless I think it's wise to start laying the groundwork for relations between England and Russia.

The short version is that I'd really like to avoid wasting both of our time by feuding over land and sea in the north. I need to deal with the western theater of England/France/Germany, and you need to deal with Turkey (Black Sea) and the Austria/Turkey section as a whole, as well as keep an eye on Germany. I think if I put pressure on St. Petersburg it'd be a waste of my time, and if you put pressure on the English isles by way of taking the North/Norwegian seas, it'd be a waste of your time. Are you open to some sort of agreement where we basically leave each other alone? We have two of the strongest countries in the game, but the invariable puts bigger targets on both of our backs, so it seems natural for us to agree to give each other space.

I'm open to suggestions, but I figured I'd send this message just to get an idea of what your thoughts were and if you think I'm making sense here . Feel free to hit me on chat anytime if you prefer that over email. Good luck!

scooter

Edit for Summary: Basically, I don't want to deal with Regoarrar building fleets from St Petersburg and causing me trouble. It would definitely slow down my western European front, and it would be somewhat of a waste for him given that he's got a lot to deal with in his theater. It's a very logical partnership, even if we merely agree to stay out of each other's waters.

[scooter]

Starting to finally get a feel for my gameplan here. Message from Rowain last night in spoilers because I think I posted it already:

I got one contact from Amelia (turkey) confusing the times slightly (called me Duce ) but else nothing.

About suggestions: Well I prefer a strong England over a strong France any day of the week .

More to the point Englands wellbeeing is a vital interest of Italy. OTOH a france that is strong and gobbles up Italy isn't the best thing for England too.

So we are quite natural partners indeed.

Rowain

My response:

Rowain,

Well I woke up only to find a bizarre but amusing message from Lewwyn - is he using the gangsta routine on everyone? One of the more unique role-play attempts for sure. Other than that, things are still pretty quiet.

I tend to agree on your analysis, so I think it's best that we keep open lines of communication as things unfold. I'm not sure there is much we can do together *quite* yet, but as I get a feel for my neighbors, I'm sure I will be in touch with you.

What's your inclination for expansion at the moment? Obviously Tunisia is yours, but it can be tricky for Italy after that - deciding if you will go east to Austra/Balkans or west into France. I'm sure you are not quite near deciding yet, but what's your thinking on it? Rest assured that whatever you say along these lines I will not pass on to anyone - it will be kept quiet. Of course you don't have to answer, but I'm just trying to get a feel on if you plan to influence western European politics early on, or if you plan to mostly work on the Eastern front.

scooter

I had trouble with this message, but I think it turned out alright. Basically, if he's thinking of pressuring France, it could influence my dealings with France/Germany... If he wants to pressure France, I may go all-in and propose a quick take-down with him and Uberfish/DC. We'll see.

[scooter]

Response from Rowain:

Hi scooter

Based on his messages to me I think he might really use it on everyone.

I can't really say much about any plans right now as I had no answer from rego till now.

And for me alot depends how the diplo between Turkey Austria and Russia goes.

On general terms I think it is save to say that my moves concerning the west will be few during the first 2 years.

But this might change depending on opportunities

That's about as much info as I could've hoped for some blatant fishing. I'd like to reciprocate, but I want to know what Germany says before I go to far chatting with others.

Speaking of which, I had an idle chat with Uberfish for awhile. Basically he said thanks for the message and wanted to let me know he needed to chat things over with David before giving me a response. I have high hopes. The real question is what it would cost to get Germany on my side. I don't want to give up Belgium to do it, but we'll see. Other randoms from Uberfish:

1) He got contact from Nakor, but Uberfish called the email somewhat "contentless" - which was very similar to what I got - which was over 2/3rds filler. He humorously called him a "likely werewolf." Either way, if he's telling the truth, it helps my chances with Germany if Nakor dragged his feet a little bit. Wonder if he dragged his feet with him due to my message to him?

2) Said that the last thing he wants is a Russia + Turkey alliance, which obviously means Russia would put some pressure on him.

3) Will leave Austria-Hungary alone. This is pretty obvious for Germany, but it confirms it regardless.

4) Seems very knowledgeable and experienced - moreso than I originally guessed. Something to keep in mind.

[scooter]

Shot this off to Amelia (Turkey), am curious to see how she'll respond:

Greetings Amelia!

Apologies for the bland subject line, I just figured having 4-5 subject lines called "greetings!" could get annoying .

How are things in Turkey? I wasn't going to send you a message at first because we're SO far away that we're not that important quite yet, however after thinking it over, I figure I was wrong. How about we help each other out? We can't really realistically hurt each other, but helping each other is not impossible. Are you interested in some sort of unofficial "gossip pact" at all?

I don't know, I just figured that establishing a bit of a free flow of information between our two nations might be mutually beneficial. Obviously something like this should be kept a secret, but I figured I'd throw out the idea and see if you are at all receptive to it . Any thoughts?

Anyways, I hope contact with other countries is off to a smooth start! Let me know if you need anything.

scooter

That means I have officially contacted every nation in the game. I also had a chat with Uberfish/DC today (mostly uberfish), and I think I'll try to recap that later tonight.

[scooter]

I supposed it's time to update on what's going on in the England-France-Germany love triangle. Uberfish and David Corperial had a group chat with me, though it was mostly just me and uberfish talking, as I think David was busy or something. David is also new to the game, so uberfish is taking the lead here it seems. Our full chat transcript is here in spoilers, totally not cleaned up. I'll summarize though, as reading chat logs can be unexciting.

4:55 PM David: You've been invited to this chat room!
4:56 PM Yeah, well as it says we definitely would like to work with you and think a partition of France will be a good idea
me: ok,that was what i would like to see as well. basically i think we make good natural allies, and dividing french land is very advantageous to both of us
4:57 PM the trick is how to do it quickly and evenly. any thoughts from your side?
my thing is i'm trying to plan for the first year. obviously i can get norway, but from there every city center is a question mark
4:59 PM uberfish: Don't think we can sneak into burgundy ;p
france talks about it too much
5:00 PM me: france talks about it too much? like how?
5:01 PM uberfish: anyway on principle we could split belgium + france + iberia 3/3
and sweden / st pete 1/1
5:02 PM Seems fair?
5:03 PM me: (looking at the map, one minute)
5:05 PM heres the tricky part, as i'm looking at things
5:06 PM for year 1, holland and denmark are definitely yours, and you could theoretically get a third center
for me on the other hand... norway is it. belgium is contestable (though i have a slightly better claim on it) and thats really my only real option for a 2nd center without taking from you or france
but me having belgium could make for slightly awkward situation if you have 3/5 of the other france/iberia centers
5:07 PM if you follow that
uberfish: yeah
me: thats what i'm trying to figure out
how that should work exactly
5:08 PM uberfish: are you trying for the channel?
me: i'd like to yes. fleet-> channel fleet-> northsea is ideal
5:09 PM i'm going to try to make sure nakor doesnt go for it
uberfish: then you might have a shot at brest
or if not, position on Pic etc
me: yeah, which would be nice. i just cant guarantee it for myself if he decides to come back and cover
right
uberfish: Belgium might just be a bounce with france then
5:10 PM me: any clues on what he will do?
uberfish: no it'd be a guess
If you go to the channel and then north sea fleet to norway that leaves 1 unit from each of us and france on Belgium
so that'd probably bounce
5:11 PM its a guessing game for france once engalnd has channel
5:12 PM prolly stops a build
5:14 PM me: hmmm. trying to think of the best approach here
uberfish: france has a lot of variations it can do
5:15 PM so we'd only see what was up after the first turn
me: yeah. if he comes north with marseille army that could make things challenging
but that would also possible expose brest further
5:16 PM one thought that crossed my mind is if you would support a convoy into belgium this fall, i could turn around and use that army to suppoprt you into paris in the following fall
france would crumble pretty easily at that point i think... depending on his moves
5:17 PM uberfish: that one's a bit dangerous from our point of view
me: how so?
5:18 PM uberfish: cause if we're sitting in ruhr and burgund
france can slip into munihc
5:19 PM me: i dont quite follow... basically i'm suggesting you could move into holland and ruhr in the fall. support me into belgium in the spring... if he has someone in burgundy, you would need to cover yourself and support with only holland
but that should still be sufficient right?
5:20 PM uberfish: yeah but a german fleet in holland just gets in the way
it should go to denmark
me: ah. so you would take denmark with the fleet, so the move i'm suggesting only works if he doesnt take burgundy is what you're saying
5:21 PM uberfish: yeah
me: what makes you think he would?
5:22 PM uberfish: cause its a standard thing for france to do frankly
it borders bothj paris and marseilles
5:23 PM me: right yeah. i guess its not realistic to count on. so how would you suggest going forward then? waiting to see the fall results and planning based on that?
5:24 PM uberfish: yeah
5:25 PM basically i think putting a german fleet in holland is misplaced
it really wants to be on scandinavia/baltic
me: yeah i get that
5:26 PM i will say that i'm iffy about such an even split, because in reality an "even" split isnt 100% even
say we do the 3/3 and the 1/1
5:27 PM you have a secure rear border with me and you have oodles of expansion targets next... russia, AH, and italy are all there, depending on the eastern situation, someone will be there for the taking
me on the other hand... my two choices would be to somehow convoy an invasion force into northern russia or sail clear around and start on italy
5:28 PM so an even split like taht not only puts you up by 1 center, but i'd argue that you benefit more from such a split because you have more neighbors to worry about and benefit from if that makes sense
5:29 PM uberfish: well, you're teh one with the secure corner position
So no, I dont follow that arugment at all
there's no guarantee whoever comes out on top in the east would be easy prey
5:30 PM me: well ideally nobody would be "on top" yet
5:31 PM uberfish: well long term its possible to transfer SC to even things out if one of us does better
5:32 PM me: here's an example. say i take belgium to get a 2nd center on year 1. how do we even begin to split the rest... because i'm guessing you wouldn't want to hike clear to spain, so that likely leaves me with portugal + spain and no french territory
5:33 PM uberfish: well, then supposing we made no progerss in scandinavia, youd probably turn belgium over to us while you get brest for example
me: thats true and reasonable
5:35 PM uberfish: Basically the split doesnt mean whichever order SC are captured in necessarily stays inthe same player's hands forever
5:36 PM me: okay yeah
5:37 PM so i'm assuming you'd go kiel->denmark, ber->kiel, mun->rurh?
David: sorry guys, but I have to go, I'll catch you both later
uberfish: later david
me: and is mun->bur a crazy idea?
uberfish: yeah most likely
Not completely but france can always force his way in
5:38 PM me: seems unlikely though for the fall turn, given the availablility of portugal/spain
uberfish: oh no france can support paris to bur with ar
mar
David has left
uberfish: and still take spain
me: oh yeah
5:40 PM btw, i dont mean to be a stickler about the whole land split thing. i'm very favorable to the idea of splitting france obviously
just doing my best to not back myself into a corner
uberfish: yeah
5:41 PM the transfer idea i mentioned is probably thet best solution
5:42 PM me: yeah probably
uberfish: have you heard anythign from russia?
5:43 PM me: no, nothing yet... shot him a general message, but havent heard from him
uberfish: oh well, hopefully austria and turkey attack him ;p
me: another thing going through my head is i'd almost prefer to give you both sweden/st pete and do a 4/2 split of the land west of you. not sure how interested in that you are
5:44 PM uberfish: It works just as well tbh
me: just thinking longterm, i'd just as soon move on italy next and ignore russia for awhile
5:45 PM well, ignore russia completely really
and pick up centers from the mediterranean in general
uberfish: yeah well, youi trying to stuff armies down moscow would be awkward
me: yeah
hah
5:46 PM so something like brest/por/spain/marseilles for me and bel/par/swed/stpete for you. or something similar
5:47 PM uberfish: yeah
well, its probably the cleanest looking division geographically
me: and i mean obviously we can be flexible
5:49 PM well i'd say i'm officially in favor of this agreement
5:50 PM uberfish: ok, good
me: are you and david officially on board?
i mean i'm assuming so as you kinda proposed the split
uberfish: yeah
me: but wanted to know if i should put my official "stamp" on it so to speak
5:51 PM so we'll go ahead with this and see what happens in the fall
to figure how we'll handle the spring and future
5:53 PM uberfish: yeah

Summary:

1. Uberfish and DC agreed in principle to splitting the land of France. The intial proposal was a 3/3 split of France, Spain, Portugal, and Belgium, as well as a 1/1 split of Sweden and St. Petersburg.

2. I'm a little hesitant after the proposal. The issue I have is that if I take Belgium on year 1, that means I get what, Belgium, Spain, and Portugal? So Germany could have all three French city centers. I didn't like this very much. Few issues:

2a) A 3/3 and 1/1 split would leave Germany with 1 more city center than me, and that's assuming he doesn't take Sweden, which is very possible. Basically, it's not actually an even split, because Germany has much more options than me and a couple extra centers than me. For instance, Denmark and Holland definitely go to Germany, but Belgium is the closest thing England has to a second center. Using it as part of the split artificially tilts it towards Germany.

2b) Once France is gone, Germany is in better shape. They can turn around and turn their guns on Russia or Austria. I on the other hand would be left with stretching for Russia (rarely worth it) or sailing to the Mediterannean and moving on Italy. The only other option is to stab Germany, which would be the best option really. Problem is, Uberfish has to know that right? That it's putting me into a corner and forcing my hand somewhat? So I was very skeptical of the deal at first.

3. Uberfish balked at my concerns at first, but then we agreed that we could swap Brest and Belgium at a later time, making things less awkward. So the basic idea is that I would take Belgium, then we'd take Brest/Paris and I'd hand Belgium over.

4. Under this context, I had a tactical discussion. I suggested him supporting my convoy into Belgium, then using that army to support him into Paris. He balked at this because of fear of Paris -> Burgundy -> Munich. We then decided to make our Spring moves and then revisit the tactical situation after we see what France does. One of the perks of France is that you have tons of options, so who knows what'll happen. I'm going to try to ensure that France doesn't go for the English Channel. We'll see how that goes.

5. Finally, I suggested that we adjust the deal somewhat. Germany gets Sweden AND St Petersburg, and we do a 4/2 split on western Europe. That would give me Brest, Spain, Portugal, and Marseilles. Theoretically at least - the actual centers chosen could be adjusted.


So that's that. Now to handle France. I'll put my initial message (sent yesterday) in spoilers, and Nakor's response last night, and what I sent a couple hours ago.

Nakor,

Well it looks like we'll be neighbors in the Diplomacy game. Given that we are England and France, that means there's always potential for conflict, so I'd like to try to head that off and see where we stand first. As you know, with the English Channel between us, things can be tense between England and France. At the same time, an England/France alliance can be quite powerful, and I guess you could say I have some interest in something like that. What are your plans for city center expansions for year 1? If you don't mind me asking that is .

Well, regardless of how your game or my games goes, good luck and have a fun game!

scooter

Nakor's response last night:

Hi Scooter,

It's nice to be France. Hope you're happy to play as England!

Interesting to play Diplomacy again after quite some time. Hope to have enough time between my two little kids at home and the teenagers at work (I teach chemistry at a secondary school).

Indeed there can be conflict or great friendship between our nations.
It all depends on relations with Germany for both of us, with Russia for you and with Italy for me.

Since you're the first to mail me, I think it's only fair to start thinking about an EF alliance first. And that means twarting Germany.
How does that sound to you and do you see potential in such a plan?

Cheers,
Nakor

My response after the Uberfish chat:

Nakor,

Yeah, I seem to get the sense from nearly everyone that they've played before, but it's been a long time. I'm in the same boat there for sure!

I do certainly see potential there. I guess my primary concern is the English Channel and Belgium. England can obviously get Norway, but that's the only center that's guaranteed for me. Past that, it's difficult to get more. In contrast, Spain and Portugal are easy pickings for you, and Holland/Denmark (and Sweden potentially) are easy pickings for Germany. So getting Belgium is crucial to me really.

So I guess I would need assurances from you that you wouldn't prevent me from getting Belgium and that you wouldn't pressure me via the English Channel. Again, I'm definitely interested in the idea of working together, but I need to make sure that you understand that I can't get myself backed into a corner of being locked out of Europe . I think these are pretty reasonable though as Belgium is typically an English annexation.

What are your thoughts? Are these things feasible for you? And what would you need from me?

scooter

Hopefully things go as planned. We'll see what kind of reaction I get from Nakor.

[scooter]

More contact with Amelia:

Greetings Scooter,

Sadly those were my thoughts exactly, give that we live on the other side of europe =(

However, come to think of it, there was something i wanted to ask you. Do you intend to have early aggressions against russia?

I hope this can be kept a secret, but given that this is diplomacy, i'm not going to ask for such a thing (since it can be broken at will anyway!)

So yes, i agree to the no information deal.

Regards,

Sultana Amelia II of Karaman

Amelia is interested in some sort of information sharing. Hard to tell how interested she is, but it's a start. My response:

Amelia,

First off, yeah, I know things can be broken at will, but I see no reason to break a trivial deal such as this and shatter trust - if I'm going to tarnish my reputation I might as well get something big from it right??

I'll be honest - no I don't have any plans yet for early Russian aggression. That's not to say that it could never happen, but I'm more interested in making sure my corner of the world is under control first. I'm sure you understand that given that you have the other corner to deal with!

Is that disappointing to you? Did you have designs on getting aggressive with Russia? How do you think the Russia/Turkey/Austria triangle will work out?

scooter

Not particularly important, just trying to fish a little for info and see how things go in general.

[scooter]

Finally got JDIP installed, so here's my projections for moves in the spring:



So from talking with Uberfish, this seems most likely. The English and Germany moves are what they would be if they were sent in now. The French projections are just based on what is typical. A Paris -> Burgundy move is why Uberfish is hesitant about promising support for me into Belgium. I suggested Uberfish try to go straight into Burgundy, but Marseilles can support him in because Spain is only one move away.

My moves are certainly not set in stone, but it really depends on how talks with Nakor go. We'll see, but I figured I'd give a bit of a visualization as to what things look like. I'm happy to explain any moves or answer any questions that lurkers might have.