[SPOILERS] Serdoa, Ichabod and Ex-Girlfriends - co-starring NH,Bigger and Lewwyn

[pindicator]

I think Victoria is often underrated.

Were you still talking about girlfriends?

[Serdoa]

I fear I will miss all the jokes about ex-girlfriends

@Ichabod

Thanks for your thoughts. For the opening, my thoughts right now are to settle 1W on the PH, abandoning the fish. Another city can grab it later. But for us I don't think the fish is necessary or even desirable. If we settle 1W we can instead farm the floodplain in the north. That's only 4 food of course but it does not need the LH and workboat investment (a total of 90 hammers). So moving means we save enough hammers for a settler. What hurts a little bit is that we won't have the lake LHed. But I certainly could do without a capital which BFC consists mostly of Coast and Ocean.

Anyhow, I looked quickly at your idea of starting with a Granary and I don't think we would want to settle for the fish in that case either. We would start with Agri, Wheel, researching Pottery. If we would we would just have a Worker, Granary and Workboat finished by EOT30. BW would finish around T40. And we would be size 3 before we even finish the Granary not really benefitting from it if the plan is to work Fish, Corn, PHx2 at size 4 to finally get a settler out. It would take somewhere till T50+ before we do actually see a positive effect from it. And I think I am able to get a Granary in the capital at that point with the Worker -> Worker -> Settler opening as well, but with more commerce included.

[Serdoa]

Scout moves 1S? 2S of settler may be a resource and I think that's the most imporatnt information to decide if a move is worthwile. That corn seems strange there, like if it was added to the start, so maybe fish was our only food and 2S is either cow or a hidden resource. 1N, 1NW is the only move I'd consider, but that is awfully risky.

Scout moves I agree, with the added option of 1SW. Won't show the grassland tile there, but that would be in the BFC regardless if we move or not, so it really is not that important imo to know it for now. Though if we consider moving to the FP-area it would get interesting.

Thinking about it, the move 1N,1NW is probably best. Moving south might reveal another resource, but I don't consider moving to the FP-area right now anyhow. If it would reveal something in the south, it would just cement that we settle 1W on the PH. But if we move to the FP-area and see something special (like another wet corn) then we might reconsider moving the settler there. And in that case we most likely would not move onto the PH no matter that fogged resource.

[Serdoa]

Another good point for João is that our Capital will be pretty bad for cottages, so FIN trait gets a bit nerfed. On the other hand, I think this capital allows us to get a civ like Byzantium. Though Wheel/Myst sucks, I think we can do a lot with this capital with just agri + mining. Well, not really sure about that, but maybe it's something to consider (like if you want to go for worker/worker/settler opening).

Edit: A myst start is better in these settings too, since religions are more valuable in games with way more players. In my opinion, at least.

Checked quickly on this as well. We have to start with Agri. Starting with Mining on top can yield a EOT26 settler (IMP, non-EXP). Starting with whatever else delays that to T28. Starting with Mining but not Agri will delay till around T30 is my guess. So I think either Mining or Agri has to be one of the starting techs. Though with EXP/IMP we would probably want Agri/Mining as starting techs. That's only China though and I think chances are that either Joao or China are gone before the pick comes back to us.

[Serdoa]

I'm debating right now with myself the pro and cons of Joao and Darius. The interesting bit is that those two are pretty much the exact opposites of each other. While Darius has nothing helping him in the early game, he should be a late-game powerhouse, easily out-researching everyone. Joao on the other hand is a early-game god. No one can keep up with his expansion if played correctly. But in the late-game he has nothing helping him when the others finally catch up.

And that's actually were PB8 comes into play. It gives me some idea about "late-game" normal speed civ and what issues one faces, experience which I am actually lacking, and it shows to me that I am not having issues keeping up in the early game in expansion, even without any real expansion trait and building wonders left and right. Of course that was with traits slightly balanced and me going on the warpath to catch up, but still I think I am capable of keeping in touch even as FIN/ORG till my traits start to shine. Except if one is taking Joao - but imo the only one left to pick whom I believe can play Joao to full effect is WK.

Also, and in the end the reason for my decision: I don't think I have enough ex-girlfriends to support Joao.

[Serdoa]

Pick Darius and I'll lurk you guys.

Well I guess you have to lurk us now Noble

Joao is weaker on Normal speed. You survived without Slavery in 47 with Joao because you were able to 2 or 3 turn workers and settlers due to Quick. That's not going to happen on Normal.

I agree partly with this. One factor in PBEM47 was also that there simply weren't all that many food sources so whipping my cities and regrowing them would have taken quite some time and would have needed elaborate plans when to whip which city to juggle the few food tiles between them all the time. Together with the need to work as many cottages as often as possible whipping simply didn't cut it. You can't expand like crazy AND whip away all your cottage-working population. And you also can't whip away mined hills either as they are 5.5 - 6 yield for settlers and 4.75 to 5 for workers. Too good after size 4 or 5. Which again I needed to work enough cottages.

So yeah, 47 surely was a different beast than this PB. That's also part of why I didn't pick Joao. One other reason not to pick Joao was that I'd rather not let the players left picking get Darius. As I said I feel that only WK can really use Joao to full effect. But Darius is easy to use and I'd expect that at least half the players left to pick had him on their desired list. Denying him is from a meta-pov stronger than denying Joao I think.

[Serdoa]

Ok, now that we have picked leader, next up, which civ to take? Imo those are the ones in the running:

1st	Chinese	Agri	Mining	Cho-Ko-Nu (X-Bow)	Pavillion (Theater)
2nd	Egypt	Wheel	Agri	War Chariot (Chariot)	Obelisk (Monument)
3rd	Ottoman	Wheel	Agri	Janissary (Musket)	Hammam (Aqueduct)
4th	Sumeria	Wheel	Agri	Vulture (Axe)	Ziggurat (Courthouse)
5th	French	Wheel	Agri	Musketeer (Musket)	Salon (Observatory)
6th	Babylon	Wheel	Agri	Bowman (Archer)	Garden (Colosseum)
7th	Mali	Wheel	Mining	Skirmisher (Archer)	Mint (Forge)

[NobleHelium]

Fog reading says you have three FPs up in the north, 2nw, 2n1w and 2w1n of the corn. So moving the scout there will not reveal any resources unless they're on a hill behind the FPs.

I think you probably need to move capitals with this spot...

[Ichabod]

Are we considering moving to the fp area? I think we should (at least consider it). Maybe moving the scout 1nw could be a good thing? Reveals quite a bit of land for a city settled 1W and a city settled 2N1W.

[Serdoa]

Fog reading says you have three FPs up in the north, 2nw, 2n1w and 2w1n of the corn. So moving the scout there will not reveal any resources unless they're on a hill behind the FPs.

I think you probably need to move capitals with this spot...

2nw of the corn has forests on it, so isn't a FP. Though that still means it won't hold any resources.

And I think you are right, we will have to move it later. Obviously because this is not a commerce-capital and that is what we want with Darius. Also because we seem to be near the south end of the world if I trust that tundra-tile. Therefore our expansion will probably be mostly north, meaning moving our capital is probably necessary to keep it in a better spot in regards to distance maintenance.