Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[Sullla]

Let's take these teams in order.

Apolyton: We don't want to sign an NAP with Apolyton that ends too close to the one that we have with CFC. I would not suggest Turn 170 for this reason, and it's quite close to the Turn 175 that we have lined up with CivFanatics. How about we ask them for 50 turns of peace, which takes us up to T185? That gives us plenty of leeway to avoid a CFC dogpile, and it would allow us to go on the offensive against Apolyton later if we want to do so. I anticipate allowing 20 turns to go through the Germans, and then another 15 or so turns to consolidate their land would be about right. Turn 185 is my suggestion here.

I will leave them a short message in-game on the diplo window that we won't interfere with their barb city and we're working on an NAP message to send to them.

UniversCiv has already offered us a map trade in-game, which I'll accept when I log in. I will request Open Borders from them again when I do so, since there's really no reason for us not to be trading.

CFC: OK these guys are absolute dicks. There's so much bullshit layered on their message that I could smell it a mile away. They knew damn well that we were racing them to Taj Mahal, and then they send us this message claiming that they just happened to gain access to marble the turn that the discovered Nationalism, and then they just happen to offer us that same marble the exact turn that they finish the wonder, when we already have our own source. As always with this team, they will adhere to the exact letter of the law while completely ignoring the spirit in which it was written. Here's what we signed:

5.5 Team Civfanatics agrees to give Realms Beyond a 10T loan on marble at some point during the NAP. This can be arranged around CFC's builds to be a 10T window in which they will not be using the marble. RB would like this window to start no earlier than T120 and no later than T150. Both sides will make good-faith effort to be accommodating on the timing of this loan.

They are trying to pawn off their marble to us when we already have a source, so that we gain nothing, and then weasel their own marble back when they have use of it. OK, sure, power gaming and all that, but then they have the balls to write up the whole thing as being due to "war with the Spaniards". Complete and utter bullshit. Note that they have written their message in such a way as to claim that we are breaking the past deal if we don't accept their marble offer: "please ask your turnplayer to accept it". God, I hate that Sommerswerd guy.

We need a message that politely declines their offer while making it clear that we still expect marble from them down the road. Then we ask them for marble right when we think that they're discovered Literature tech. If they're going to screw around with us, we can screw around with them too. The message from kjn is pretty good, I like the idea of taking their marble from T145-155. Anyone know when scooter will be back, to see if he can add anything?

DO NOT congratulate CFC on building the Taj Mahal. We're not happy about that, and it would be an utter lie to with them good luck about finishing the wonder. Better to ignore it completely. Those "congrats on landing wonder/free tech!" messages always sound unbelievably fake and contrived. I should know, I wrote a bunch of them in past Pitboss games and people called me out on how phoney it sounded.

Needless to say, I will not be accepting the CFC offer of marble in-game.

[darrelljs]

I actually meant the congratulations sincerely, for a job well done. Then they sent that message, and yeah, no we won't be congratulating them...they must think we are idiots or they are mocking us .

Darrell

[Cyneheard]

I actually meant the congratulations sincerely, for a job well done. Then they sent that message, and yeah, no we won't be congratulating them...they must think we are idiots or they are mocking us .

Darrell

Yeah, I thought the e-mail was going to be a "Well played." But, nope, they threw it in our faces.

[SevenSpirits]

We need a message that politely declines their offer while making it clear that we still expect marble from them down the road. Then we ask them for marble right when we think that they're discovered Literature tech. If they're going to screw around with us, we can screw around with them too. The message from kjn is pretty good, I like the idea of taking their marble from T145-155. Anyone know when scooter will be back, to see if he can add anything?

DO NOT congratulate CFC on building the Taj Mahal. We're not happy about that, and it would be an utter lie to with them good luck about finishing the wonder. Better to ignore it completely. Those "congrats on landing wonder/free tech!" messages always sound unbelievably fake and contrived. I should know, I wrote a bunch of them in past Pitboss games and people called me out on how phoney it sounded.

Needless to say, I will not be accepting the CFC offer of marble in-game.

Well I consider CFC to be in violation of one part of our agreement: "Both sides will make good-faith effort to be accommodating on the timing of this loan."

They clearly did not make a good faith effort; in fact they actively tried to make the timing of the loan be as useless for us as possible. There are a few ways we can deal with this.

1) Ignore it and consider ourselves outplayed. Pro: Might keep a good relationship longer.
2) Acknowledge it and consider ourselves outplayed. Pro: Might keep a good relationship longer.
3) Immediately tell them we consider our agreements to be violated, and break off communication. Pro: We come across honestly. We end up with decent moral position in terms of attacking them later.
4) Immediately tell them we consider our agreements to be violated and ask for reparations e.g. 2 fast workers. Pros: Might get something out of it. We come across honestly. Might keep a good relationship longer.
5) Violate the spirit of the agreement in turn to get revenge. Pro: it might inconvenience them a tiny bit.
6) Pretend to consider ourselves legitimately outplayed, but secretly consider our agreements to be void. Pro: We end up with good practical position in terms of attacking them later, and at least some moral justication for it too.

So far you guys are suggesting 5) - try to bother them by asking for a marble loan that is inconvenient for them - and that is my least favorite option. It shows our frustration without actually hurting them significantly, loses us any moral high ground we might have, and generally encourages more of the same from them. Please, let's do anything but this. To avoid being simply critical, here are some possible replies:

Hi Caledorn,

Your team acquired marble several turns ago and expended incredible effort to build the Taj Mahal before lending it to us, despite knowing that we wanted marble for this purpose. I am very disappointed, as I had high expectations of your integrity with regard to making a "good-faith effort to be accommodating on the timing of this loan". As a team, we have conflicted feelings about this, but I still have a lot of respect for your team and I would like to repair our trust. Please let me know if you are interested in making a real good-faith effort to maintain friendship between our teams, and we can talk more.

darrelljs, interim diplomat for team Realms Beyond

This message's goal is to try to salvage something from the situation, and to be honest.

OR

Hi Caledorn,

Thanks, but we don't need marble at this time. Maybe you know why.

darrelljs, interim diplomat for team Realms Beyond

This message is for if we want to try to retain the best possible relations with them for now, possibly for better backstabbing later.


Yes, I signed the messages "darrelljs". Darrell you are welcome to veto, and anyone is welcome to suggest a better name to put there.

[darrelljs]

I don't mind putting my name to either of those messages .

Darrell

[NobleHelium]

I'm in favor of numba 4 or numba 6.

[antisocialmunky]

I guess another possibility is to call them out in such a way as to force them to build units during their GA.

[Merovech]

I like number 4, honestly.

[Cyneheard]

If 4) means "start with 7's first draft e-mail" and work from them, I'm on board.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Can we go with option 3 and get Speaker to sign it? hammerhammer