[spoilers] pindicator goes off the deep end

[pindicator]

Ammendum: I forgot, courthouses also reduce corporation maintenance costs, and you get them cheap. So Free Market + Corporation(s) dovetails really well with organized. Is that stronger than State Property? I'm really not sure.

I'm leaning towards Corporations & Free Market. State Property helps with food (only if you're using workshops & watermills), with expenses (no distance maintenance), and with hammers (+10%). Assuming I can get Mining, Inc & General Cereals Corporations along with Free Market then we can expect increased commerce (trade route), increased gold (corporate headquarters paired with Wall Street should come out ahead of corporate expenses since we have limited), increased hammers (at least +4) and increased food (at least +3).

Since this is a hammer deficient map, I'm certain Mining Inc will generate more hammers, and most cities will see General Cereals gain more food even if I convert everything to workshops. So would the decreased maintenance of State Property make up for that in decreased expenses? I think at best it's a wash on the expense side, just because I have so many courthouses.

This is good to know: I'll want to prioritize Corporation and Railroad instead of Communism for my medium term plans.

[NobleHelium]

Remember that FM reduces corporation maintenance as well.

[pindicator]

I'd like to thank everybody who posted tonight. We've now passed Rego and moved into 2nd place for thread count!

[T-hawk]

Just took a peek, and right now Mining, Inc will get me +4hpt in each city, and Cereal Mills gets +3 fpt. Not game-breaking, but a healthy boost.

That's actually not so great when you factor in the hammer cost for the executive. 67 hammers on Quick means 20+ turns to break even.

Both are fairly reasonable: they cost between 3g to 5g for cities with a courthouse.

The cost shown on the shift-F7 screen does not include inflation, so you have to adjust for that manually. It's really weird: corp cost is first divided by inflation, then shown on the corp and city screens, then multiplied back by inflation on the F2 economic screen. Corp cost is functionally constant with regards to inflation but the corp and city screens lie to you and make it look cheaper.

Also, the corp HQ with Wall Street produces 12 gold per city, so almost any corp is directly profitable at low resource counts.

[pindicator]

Well, Rego now knows about the troop sale. Can't say he's too happy: he just received an ultimatum from Gaspadore. They want 5 cities, 100g, and his world map. It was sweet of them to tell him they had "many, many zerkers"; he knew exactly who to talk to next:

me: hi

Regoarrarr: hey there
so.... it would have been nice to get a heads up that you had given / sold berserkers and nav 1 galleys to gaspadore....

me: sold. needed to fund that nationalism run somehow

Regoarrarr: yeah i figured

me: he asked i didn't share with anyone, but i'm not going to lie about it
i didn't negotiate too well, he knew i was desperate for gold and took me for a ride for it

Regoarrarr: so in the past
i have been accused of not being a good ally / partner
i have really made an attempt in this game to not do that
i've been trying to really work hard to look out for your interests as well as mine
i do understand that in 2nd place
it's kind of in your best interests to have someone take shots at me
i'm assuming good faith by you
but it's frustrating to open up the day to find gaspadore shaking me down

me: i did not sell him troops with the intention he attack you, if that's what you mean

Regoarrarr: right

me: i tried to keep it to galleys

Regoarrarr: that was the good faith i was assuming
threatening to raze my cities

me: is he threatening that?

Regoarrarr: yes
"We are currently holding the save with a stack of many, many berserkers sitting outside of your new sheep city. We will raze it this turn if you are unwilling to meet our price."

me: what are they asking?

Regoarrarr: 5 cities, my map and 100g
how many berserkers do they have?

me: 16

Regoarrarr: lol

me: like i said, they got me over the bargaining table

Regoarrarr: so
i know you've been deciding what to do in the medium term
would you be interested in going after them at some point here?

me: absolutely

Regoarrarr: do you have enough of a border with them to make it worth your whiel?

me: not really
i'd need to finish off yuri

Regoarrarr: gasp is offering 30t nap
if i take this deal
it's certainly likely i'll have a tech lead over them in 30t

me: i think you'd have frigates at least

Regoarrarr: yeah
too bad they already have 4 move ships

me: maybe airship support since you're aiming for physics

Regoarrarr: how many nav 1 galleys did you send?

me: 8

Regoarrarr: hence the 16 zerks

me: yeah

Regoarrarr: i saw from the power graph that you did it 1-2 turns ago
where did you make the exchagne?

me: Zul'Aman

Regoarrarr: i'm assuming near zulaman?
jinx

me: heh
well, there's nothing that says you can't have 5 move ships in 30 turns

Regoarrarr: what moves 5?

me: nav frigates & galleons

Regoarrarr: gotcha
do you have any deals with gasp?
i.e. if i take a deal with him
and he "sends his zerks elsewhere"
do you need to be worried?
or is that code for yuris

me: i think that's code for yuris

Regoarrarr: ok

me: he isn't to use those against me per the deal

Regoarrarr: just making sure he wouldn't be going after you

me: that would be painfully ironic

Regoarrarr: yeah
pb2-esque

me: oh yeah, that was cold

Regoarrarr: gifted cities come with no revolt, right?

me: no revolt, all infra

Regoarrarr: right

me: they start with 0 food in teh granary and 0 hammers in prod

Regoarrarr: so how committed are you to an attack on gasp in ~30t
keep in mind that in 30t there might not BE a yuri for you to take out

me: if there isn't then I'm on board 100%, if there is i'd have to go through him first. But my NAP with yuri ends in 20t
so i'd have 10 to do it

Regoarrarr: ok
it affects whether i take a deal with him
i don't want to get to 30t
be ready to smack him around

me: you're going to break it early?

Regoarrarr: no
sorry
i meant i don't watnt to get to the 30t point and you are begging off
not that i didn't want to let the nap to go the full 30t

me: my only condition is that if yuri is putting up a fight / still around I'd have to deal with him before joining. but if those troops are going after yuri then i may very well be bordering gaspar

Regoarrarr: ok
i'm going to make a counter offer then
hopefully it will go better than the counter offer the folks that are trying to buy our house made

There's a little bit that didn't make it in, parts where Rego discussed counter-offering. I guess Gaspadore can threaten two of his cities right away, and he doesn't have the troops to stop them. There's also one city among the 5 that he definitely does not want to lose. Unless he changes his mind since our chat he is going to try to counter by offering full military intel on yuri in exchange for giving up less cities, maybe even just those two paired with settlers and gold. He's been dumping his EPs into Yuri for a while now so he has sight on most his cities.

If Rego's been trying to shed his reputation as being a self-serving teammate than I feel sorry for how this game is turning out. I've been looking at this alliance as if I need to look out for #1 specifically because it's an alliance with Rego. And while i think i've been the most advantageous of the two of us, i don't think he's been doing deals out of the kindness of his heart either. Or rather, perhaps it explains how he has approached deals: i thought that when he's wanted something he has run it by me with only lip service towards wanting to make a deal. Maybe he's honestly been more conflicted, wanting to make a deal so i don't lose out, but then similarly once he begins talking about them he realizes that there are no compensations for some of these prizes.

Still, how do you balance being a good teammate with still trying to win the game? It's not always clearcut: i know selling those troops was definitely a grey area, i knew there was a good chance that Gaspadore would use them against Rego, but letting Rego get to Taj seemed a clear-cut way to let him run away with the game. And now that I'm friendly with Gaspadore but buddy-buddy with Rego, walking that tightline is going to be more and more interesting.

One thing i am a little worried about is that if Gaspadore hears that i gave Rego the details of our agreement he'll use that as a flimsy reason to break the "don't attack me" portion of our agreement. So i sent him an email letting him know that Rego and I had just chatted and that Rego was not too happy with me right now. (Not that i appreciate him advertising he has zerkers, but i can't expect Gaspadore to act in my best interests, can i?). If he does attack me with my zerkers that would be hilarious. I would honestly laugh out loud on that one, talk about reaping what you sow.

But more importantly: we have a goal! War in 30 turns, maybe less! Once i kick off my GA i need to figure out what i can realistically get in that time. If i can get Rego to agree to swapping frigates for airships that would mean i need to research Divine Right, Optics, Astronomy, Construction, Engineering, and then a choice of Paper/Education or Feudalism/Guilds (but i'll want all 4 eventually so i may go for all 4 right away) before finishing up with Gunpowder and Chemistry. Getting all that in 20 turns will be fine; getting it and then building up for an attack when my NAP ends with Yuri is another matter... I could start drafting zerkers whenever i chose. Better would be to go in with rifles, so maybe i need to add Printing Press, Replaceable Parts, and Rifling to the list. It really depends on what i can expect to see for a tech pace, but my gut is telling me i won't be getting rifles until right at the 20 turn deadline, if not later. So maybe i draft the zerkers now and then upgrade them with gold right before declaring war. Upgrading will cost me 20 + 3 * 27 hammers or 101g per unit. I'd need a great merchant at least- maybe the one from Economics can fill that in, but it may be more cost-efficient to just turn the slider to 0% at that time.

Frigates and amphibious rifles should easily carry the day. Airships would just be gravy.

I can't help but think that this situation still managed to turn out favorably, even with Rego learning about the sale. Still, there is a lot of game to be played. And i hope you lurkers appreciate the amount of chaos this has caused; i sure am!

[Ceiliazul]

(Not that i appreciate him advertising he has zerkers, but i can't expect Gaspadore to act in my best interests, can i?). If he does attack me with my zerkers that would be hilarious. I would honestly laugh out loud on that one, talk about reaping what you sow.

The power graph pulls no punches. I'm sure Rego didn't need to be told who got what from where. :-)

I like the renewed focus, very much. Keep up the good reporting.

[pindicator]

Did some math and sent Rego this email:

[COLOR="Plum"]I just added up the tech routes and it's surprisingly even. If you go:

Optics
Astronomy
Printing Press
Sci Meth
Physics

that will be 10,935 beakers. Adjusted for pre-requisite bonus puts the cost at 9,458.

If I go

Optics
Astronomy
Construction
Engineering
Paper
Education
Feudalism
Guilds
Gunpowder
Chemistry

that will be 11,398 beakers. Adjusted for pre-reqs the cost would be 9,625.

That's within 5% for total beakers and within 2% for adjusted, pretty even I'd say.
Of course, to get there we'd also have to average 320 "raw" beakers per turn, which is doable but makes me wonder how much time we'll have to build frigates & airships before invading. Plus if we want to invade with something bigger than maces we'd have to add more tech for that.[/COLOR]

He could also use Liberalism on Physics and save 2,683 beakers (2,286 adjusted).

[pindicator]

More deals with Rego. This stuff will bite me one day. Next pbem I play will not be done as part of a near-game-long alliance. Conditional, temporary ones: of course. But an alliance as long as rego and i have had gets to be prickly.

Rego asked about Taj, trying to talk me out of it one last time, and I told him I was going to whip it this turn. So we worked out a deal where I don't have to whip, but i need to trade Great People with him: a Scientist (hopefully I get one soon) for his Priest. I actually ran max food on FAP last turn because I was expecting to whip it; now we're going to have to see how long it takes to hand-finish the wonder. I'm guessing 3 more turns. So do I research Divine Right in those 3 turns and build Spiral sooner? I think I do.

We also talked a bit about future plans. I'm definitely headed to Chemistry; he is definitely headed to Physics. He'll use Liberalism and those 3 great scientists to get there FAST. Then he's headed to gunpowder for jans and then Chemistry as well. I'm debating between going Military Science for Grenadiers or Printing Press, Replaceable Parts, and Rifling for Rifles. Big difference in tech cost but zerkers upgrade to either.

[pindicator]

This email from Rego is raising all kinds of red flags.

[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Do you feel like you could give Sian iron for his 134g and map? I just dont' feel like I can risk them invalidating the NAP over 134gold. Depends on how secure you feel with them.

BTW I was chatting with Gaspar about it. He thinks that you and I are going to dogpile them in 30t . I was chatting around various alternatives just to let you know, but there is 0% i'm working with gaspadore against you, inc ase they mention it. [/COLOR]

Even hearing Rego talk about the possibility of working against me is concerning. I guess I'm of the mindset that there's only a 0% chance if he hasn't thought of it, and he wouldn't be mentioning it if he hadn't thought of it. If they are working together I don't know what i can do: both rego and commodore are capable planners, so i have no doubt they would coordinate well together. I'd probably need to whip my empire to pieces just to stand a chance.

Then: if Gaspadore is sure I'm going to go after him, is it because I've been dumping my EP into him all game? He's never brought it up. Or maybe the other teams are catching on to the extent of Rego and my relationship. I'm sure as good a story as i could have told about NAPs and zerkers they have to wonder why i didn't use my troops against him. Will Gaspadore come after Yuri or will he break his agreement and use my own troops against me? If he really fears a 2v1 in thirty turns then perhaps its to his advantage to leave Yuri as a buffer between us.

Finally: how will Yuri react if Gaspadore comes after him? I can't imagine it will be as well as Rego did. Then again, Yuri seemed pretty calm and even-tempered when i attacked him before. Still, i can't take the chance that he won't see berserkers and want vengeance.

So do i revolt into Nationalism as soon as the golden age begins and start drafting? I'm leaning towards no, but i also think i need to start building troops. I need to figure out:

1. How many turns until Taj is built?
2. How fast can i build Spiral Minaret in whipping-Taj and not-whipping-Taj scenarios? And which is preferable?
3. How fast can i finish Globe? I think once Globe comes in that is my cue to start drafting.
4. What is my eta for my tech path? I checked and last turn i make 292 beakers at near-break-even. So we can guess 400-450bpt in the golden age. But this will go up with Spiral. 400bpt on the tech path I outlined in my email to rego will complete it in 24 turns.
5. And most important: how do i want to keep playing? Do i want to be a "good teammate" even if i feel that just shackles my creativity and a lot of what i find fun about mp? Or do i want to keep playing to win? I asked Rego if he wants to call the game as a team when its the two of us or if we want to fight it out. He wants to fight it out, so that implies i need to try to get whatever advantages i can. Honestly, i think i need to be ruthless if i want to have a chance at winning. But do i want to be ruthless at the cost of the game not being fun for others? That's more difficult.

In a way, i hope gaspadore and rego are conspiring something. If i know everybody is conniving then it makes #5 a lot easier to answer. But if i'm the only one swinging deals then it starts to feel like not being sporting.

[Ceiliazul]

5. And most important: how do i want to keep playing? Do i want to be a "good teammate" even if i feel that just shackles my creativity and a lot of what i find fun about mp? Or do i want to keep playing to win?

WWRD?* Play to win.

You've convinced me with prior gameplay that you'll solve the other questions.

* What would Rego do?