You've convinced me with prior gameplay that you'll solve the other questions.
* What would Rego do?
WWRD is exactly the question. He's great at pulling the guilt strings, but I have to figure out if he's being sincere or not. Okay, I can only go by the Rego of repute and that guy is self-serving. Nothing says he hasn't been that way this game, even if he's professing otherwise.
Okay, so that means I need to reconsider this Taj deal. Why help him speed along to Physics? In fact, is it really in my interest to slow-build the Taj? If I whip I'm sacrificing 6 population in my moai city to get a 2-turn head start on a golden age. I'd be able to regro the population fast: max growth in FAP is 11fpt. And I think the additional GPP bonus, the ability to revolt into Bureaucracy sooner, and with the notion that beakers now are worth more than beakers later... I think I want to whip.
And if you factor in giving Rego another Great Scientist, I think it's definitely better to whip. Let him get to Physics a little slower.
Edit: I dont' know if I posted this already, but once I told Rego I could whip Taj to completion he offered to let me hand-build it in exchange for trading him my next GS for his GP. I told him my odds for a GS weren't great: 45% in the first city and 67% in the second.
Rego and Gaspadore finally finished up the turn between the two of them, and we have some intriguing diplomacy. Who is telling the truth? Who is lying? Who wants to play Diplomacy, Civ4 Edition?
Let's start with the picture everyone's itching to see:
6 population for an earlier GA. It may be debatable to do, but it's better that than Rego's deal. We'll post demographics next turn, but between the GA and Rego's recent losses, we are looking good in the demographics screen.
And now the intrigue!
You saw what Rego sent me before; now here's what Gaspadore and I have been telling each other. I sent this yesterday:
Quote:[COLOR="Plum"]Just an FYI,
Had a not-too-pleasant chat with our mutual friend Rego. Guess that power graph is pretty obvious now, isn't it? Maybe next time I'll try to align some military builds to go along with when I gift troops...
Happy Trails,
pin[/COLOR]
Then today:
Quote:[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Hey Pin,
Thanks for keeping us in the loop, we'll do likewise. We actually used the poor action-hungry 'zerks in the same way you did, extortion, which is why you should see Rego down and us up four cities. Not as good as seven, but hey, we can't have everything can we? Looks like Rego got doubly hurt on this deal, what with your Taj race evidently going neck-and-neck. You've already forced him to not sandbag Liberalism, which probably keeps all of us in the game. How's the Taj race coming along? We of course won't say anything to Rego one way or the other.
Cheers,
-Commodore[/COLOR]
Quote:[COLOR="Plum"]These have got to be the biggest cost-benefit zerkers ever built. They've fought in maybe 10 total battles and won 10 cities and 2 settlers and razed another. Gotta love those guys!
Taj is finishing this turn. Rego is trying to talk me out of beating him to it -- he's offered a Great Prophet for Taj how kind of him! -- but i think i'm just going to finish up and call it golden. By the way, he isn't too happy with you right now. Just a friendly heads up.
Happy Civ-ing!
pin[/COLOR]
Quote:[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Heh, I figure we're both on the list. He try to enlist you yet as an ally against us? He's put out feelers to see if we'd be willing to ally against you. I think it's Rego the Diplomacy player coming out under pressure. The prophet for Taj swap is hilarious, that's totally worth it. :rolleyes: I suppose you and your MoM are looking at a golden era in the future, nice work.
We really need to rename these berserkers to "perpetually frustrated", poor guys don't get a lot of action, although the couple of Sianic cities are about to feel their wrath.
Happy Mahal-ing![/COLOR]
Now isn't this interesting? Rego tells me he's "chatting with gaspadore about alternatives" and Gaspadore tells me Rego is putting out feelers to 2v1 me. I wonder which one is closest to the truth.
Well, when I think about it I think it's safe to assume Rego isn't going to double cross me (or he's a master of the double cross). We chatted more today, and he gave a lot of details about tech path for someone planning to double cross. And while he certainly could blame me for the lost cities, he seems to have a fire to go after Gaspadore right now
Quote:Regoarrarr: hey
so i took the deal
gave up 4 cities and world map
also a worker and longbow in lieu of 100g
they neglected to mention that they had sunk 2 triremes and a workboat also :-/
my fire to destroy them burns bright.....
Quote:Regoarrarr: okay
someone had the nerve to come over and try to work !
anyways yesterday i was trying to think of how to buy you off taj
since it's up in the air
and i tried to think if my great prophet would do it
that would let you do a GA also
Me: well, taj for me is going to set up 27 turns of GA
Regoarrarr: right
that was my next thought
the well, if i'm playing for an alliance, which i am
then wouldn't i want YOU to have the taj
since it gives an extra 3 turns of GA for the alliance
Me: i guess we have to answer a question between us:
are we calling the game after everyone else is gone? or are we going to fight it out?
if we call the game then it doesn't matter so much who gets what advantage
if we fight it out then it does matter
Regoarrarr: right
seems kind of lame to just call it
Me: yeah
Regoarrarr: whether that means we agree to race for space / culture
or just let anything go
i could see either way there
Me: can you imagine shuttling all those missionaries around on this map? that'd be annoying!
Quote:Regoarrarr: so i think that you should definitely not whip it
since i know that you could beat me to it
i will agree to not tech it
err finish it
Me: so what do you think is fair compensation? or something you need?
Regoarrarr: what are your 3 GPs you are planning on using for your next 2 GAs?
if i could give you a prophet and get a scientist
that would be stellar
Me: oh, you mean for me to lay off entirely? i meant for me to not have to whip
Regoarrarr: no
that's what i meant
so you've got 3 GPs that you're going to use for your next 2 GAs, right?
(on the way)
i assumed that is what you meant by 27t of GA
Me: yeah
Regoarrarr: so what types of GP are those likely to be?
Me: the first one is about 55% sci, the 2nd one is 67% sci
Regoarrarr: so my suggestion was that i give you a prophet
and you give me a sci
since it doesn't matter what yoru types are
as long as they're not all the same
Me: yeah, i think that's fair
Regoarrarr: let me share my plans
i wasn't going to liberalize ph ysics
till this whole gaspadore shenanigans
but now i am planning on doing it
with 2 more scis
Me: you can get there fast with 2
Regoarrarr: i think i can bulb PP, Astro and Sci Meth and take Physics in ~10t
i already have 2 scis
on ice
Me: the NAP still 30t?
Regoarrarr: for gasp
yes
plenty of turn to build airships
Me: absolutely
Regoarrarr: which will be the most useful for recon and air bombing
then i'd head to guilds and gunpowder
and start drafting janissaries
the physics sci can bulb most of chemistry
Me: then chemsitry probably
jinx
Regoarrarr: then maybe up to steel for cannosn?
what if you got rifling
and upgraded a bunch of CR2 amphibious zerks
Me: i was debating between that and grenadiers only because i could get to grenadiers sooner since i'm already going chemistry
Regoarrarr: do maces upgrade to grenadiers?
Me: yep
Regoarrarr: interesting
We also chatted today and alternate ways to swap a priest for a great scientist. I offered Priest + 250g for my Sci and he didn't bite. So then I tried a backup idea: we swap GS for GP and he gifts me airships. I'm guessing 3 or 4 airships would make up the difference. In the end we tabled the conversation; I'll have my next two great people at end of t117 and end of t121 and if there is no Gr Sci then there's no point in trying to hash out a deal. He also considers trying to push out another great person to fire up a golden age with his Great Prophet. I wouldn't mind him doing that...
I also asked for 133g in return for iron for Sian:
Not that it will do him any good. But I'd like to see a couple of those zerkers die to crossbows.
Before ending the night, I decided to do one more email, responding to Gaspadore.
Quote:[COLOR="Plum"]Oh yeah, he's asked me if I'm willing to go to war in 30 turns. I'm guessing the two of you signed a NAP for 30 turns? I hemmed and hawed as best I could, told him that I can't commit to anything as long as Yuri is around. Figure he'd go for that, but now he's talking along the lines that you are going to take Yuri out and rid me of my excuse.
Hope those zerkers stay lucky for you! I kind of think Yuri gave me as nice a deal as he did for peace because I won three different 30% battles against longbows with them. If he didn't check the combat log for percentages and just saw the results then he may have thought zerkers have better odds than they actually do.
Well, best of luck in making this game interesting![/COLOR]
That's right, I'm trying to keep Gaspadore from attacking Yuri and cluing him in on the attack in 30 turns. Crazy? Possibly, considering I'll be attacking him too. But if Yuri is around I'll have to finish off Yuri first, and then hope to come in as Gaspadore is crumbling. (Or Rego steam-rolls Gasp and this backfires horribly. Or Rego waits on his attack until I've finished off Yuri. Or a hundred other things.)
Commodore: So Gaspar is all enraged.
He's blaming Regoarrarr pushing you around
I suspect it's you.
Wither iron, friend Pin?
Me: i wasn't thinking
that's not a good reason, i know, but rego told me of an opportunity
that sian had asked him for iron but he didn't want to get in trouble with you
and then figured i should
i didn't think it through
it's entirely my bad
Commodore: Sigh.
I'm tryin' here, man. You know how paranoid Gaspar is, he thinks you and Regoarrarr have been joined at the hip from the start, the EP agreement, the gems/gold...
Me: dangit, i need to remember to cancel that
he wanted to build paya so offered me a little something to swap resources
Commodore: I figure it was for the Paya, I hope for a good money
Me: i keep forgetting to cancel now that paya is done
Commodore: It also doubles in hiding his source of gems, which I'm sure is his other reason. :P
Me: that sneaky little... i didn't realize that
Commodore: Dude.
Me: he has 2 gems?
Commodore: Nope, just one, but nobody else can see that from his diplo screen.
Me: oh, i see, you're saying that by us making that trade its hiding the resources from other people if they go to the diplo screen
right?
Commodore: Yeah
Me: i'll have to remember that trick
Commodore: You used it, perhaps unwittingly redacted
Needless to say, Rego is at -20 rep.
Me: ouch
that's a big hole
Commodore: He did this whole "as an olive branch, I'll refuse Sian's offer for iron"
Then, I hate to you, he used you man.
>.<
Me: i'm starting to think it wasn't worth the gold sorry man
Commodore: It's not about the iron itself, Sian has three turns left alive.
Just reeks of spite. :P
Me: yeah
well, like i said. my impression is that you aren't exactly his favorite person right now
i'm really wondering if he's holding anything over me for selling you those zerkers. if he is, he's hiding it damn well in our talks
Commodore: Yeah, he'll never show it in chat
You follow the PB4 stuff much?
Me: yeah, i was lurking that pretty well
<edited out spoilers>
Commodore: Yeah. The upshot of all this is, Rego is manipulative and very, very slimy in diplo
Trust as far as can throw, check all apples for poison.
Me: ok, so how about a split the gold i got from Sian?
it's not much, but i want to do something
Commodore: That'd certainly go a ways to repair the rep hit there.
Less so with Rego
Me: yeah, i guess it wouldn't hurt to try to obscure the gold xfer. i think if you request it then that should do the trick
Commodore: Cool, what's half?
Me: 133g was all he had, so take 67
man, that was dumb of me, risking relations for such a small amount
Commodore: Well, appreciate being able to smooth this out with you.
Heh, 67 should about cover the couple extra zerks or knights we loose. :P
Me: i hope so
maybe those zerkers keep their lucky combat streak going
so do you want to do an EP agreement?
i'd been dumping them to you since you were farthest away
Commodore: Heh, they seem to have a luck non-combat streak
Me: heh, that they do!
Commodore: Yeah, I'm for it.
Just hit end-turn, so no changes this time
I guess just whoever has more turns them off the other.
Me: ok, i'm going to just dump everything on yuri
so that will let you catch up
Commodore: As long as it's within a dozen or so it's no biggie.
Cool, glad to do business.
Me: np
[SIZE="3"]Then a little bit where we talk about other PBEMs before jumping right back into:[/SIZE]
Me: man, i need to think of a way to get back at rego...
Commodore: Well, stealing the Taj miffs him, I'm sure.
Me: yeah
Commodore: You have to treat every chat with him like a battle
Me: heh, did i tell you the best part about beating him to Taj?
better than selling zerkers to fund it
Commodore: No, what's that.
Me: 200g of the gold that got me there was rego's
Commodore: How?
Me: i had originally asked for a loan or if he wanted to buy some troops, to help fund going after DR
figure Spiral can help out
Commodore: Hah
Me: anyway, he agrees to it and then in the chat starts asking if i have plans for taj
neither of us wanted to give up on taj for any kind of compensation, so he said we should race
and then still gave me the 200g!
i think it slipped his mind
because when i got the gold from you guys and he saw that he got upset about it
Commodore: Heh
Yeah, he's careful, probably knew how much you needed and figured out how much he could give without helping enough
Me: well i don't think i'll get to land another one like that on him again
Commodore: Yeah, pretty sure he hates that oversight
Me: so now he got me with the sian thing and it's my turn again... i'll have to think of something good
Commodore: How about killing him?
Not yet.
Me: no, not yet. i have a NAP that i plan on honoring
Commodore: Oh, of course.
I'd never ask anyone to violate that.
Me: yeah, likewise
Commodore: Did Rego force you to keep the duration secrect, by the way?
Ours is 30t
Me: i actually have to go look up the stipulations on it. i was writing these down in one place but i've gotten lazy. gimme a sec
Commodore: np
Me: i don't think he asked for secrecy but i'm trying to find the conversation
here it is
Commodore: Fair 'nough.
Me: oh shoot
i gotta keep better track of this stuff
Commodore: Sign post the map, that often helps.
Me: yeah
so there's no secrecy clause
we signed on t103 and it goes until t133
30 turns must be some kind of standard number around here
Commodore: It's long enough to matter but short enough to not be game-ending.
Me: but i may need to try to extend that NAP... how did i miss this earlier?
my NAP with Yuri ends about the same turn
Commodore: Whatsat?
Ah, extend it a nice 15 turns, but no more.
That might make him a bit nervous.
Me: yeah
i like
Short version:
Selling Sian iron was stupid. I got greedy at the sight of additional gold coins and didn't think through the repercussions of giving iron to Gaspadore's rival. So not worth the risk. And I honestly have continued to forget to cancel the gold for gems deal; it's time I did that. Commodore is too quick to pin blame on Rego, although if Rego did tell me about the iron idea with the plan of causing derision between Gaspadore and I then bravo for him! That was a good play and I fell for it.
I said it earlier: i need to walk a careful tightrope to keep good relations with Gaspadore while disguising my alliance with Rego. When he asked about details on my "NAP" with Rego, I actually had to scramble through old conversations to find it. I didn't write it down with my other agreements because it wasn't a real agreement. Well, that's fixed; my "fake" agreements with Rego are written down for reference along with the real ones. I tried to play up all the times Rego and I haven't gotten along, although maybe I shouldn't have shared the Taj story. I don't like the idea of parading that one about. But I think it helped convince him that we aren't "joined at the hip".
Rego's reputation rides to the rescue...
I feel a little bad right now. Commodore is a swell guy: he's a great part of this game and he's a great addition to all games he's in, whether it be as a map maker or a player. I would love to be able to team up with him in the future and cause some havoc together (but not for a full game! I've learned that lesson ). So when you read this Commodore, know I have a ton of respect for you. And I love that we got to do that zerker deal; that was good fun. But Gaspar was right; he pegged it spot on. Rego and I have been attached at the hip all game. I'm doing what I can to keep the alliance secret, and to walk that line, but also to try to come out on top once the alliance has run its course. I can only hope Rego is doing the same.
I sent Rego an email, telling him Gaspadore has been chatty and that we probably should touch base about our "NAP". I think it'll be good to run this all by him and see what his ideas are. It may be a good idea that Rego and I don't do anything that makes it obvious we are working together, at least not until it's too late for the other teams to do anything about it.
We got one turn in and another is on the horizon, so a comprehensive turn report will come later. Now we get to talk about research, and the research potential looks very good for the golden age. After revolting to The Big B we have 840bpt at max sci and then 500bpt at break even. When Spiral Minaret finishes on end of t121 that should bring our break-even up to 600bpt. (I didn't go Pacifism; i think i will be okay with Great People and i'd rather continue my +50% multipliers for infrastructure.) So now i need to figure out my tech path. Divine Right is definitely first, and then one idea is:
t119 - Optics
t120 - Feudalism
t121 - Paper
t122 - Education - need to figure out how to get Oxford in the capital ASAP
t123 - Literature
t124 - Guilds
t125 - Banking
Except this plan leaves me away from Astronomy and i fear if i neglect my military & navy then Gaspadore is going to take advantage and not let me tech away during my golden ages. They should have Astro in 3 or 4 turns, and just because they agreed not to attack me with my own troops doesn't mean they won't make others.
If i get a great scientist in 4 turns then i will probably change up to go:
t119 - Optics
t120 - Feudalism
t121 - Paper
t122 - Education
t123 - Alphabet
t124 - Printing Press
t125 - Astronomy, after bulbing around 1400 beakers with a GS
Unfortunately i received a Great Prophet at the end of the turn. Yes, my third straight Great Prophet, and this guy was at around 10% odds. I was hoping for a Great Engineer that i could bank away for Mining, Inc since this was going to be my best odds at one (~45%) but such go dice rolls. Heck, a Great Scientist (also ~45% odds) would have set me up for bulbing Astronomy.
At least there is no chance my next Great Person is a Great Prophet. That one is either Great Scientist (67%) or Great Engineer (33%). Although i could hire a priest specialist to speed it up...
I'm also debating if i set off my 2nd GA right away. I think that depends on Oxford. If Oxford is a turn or two away from completion when the first GA ends then i'll save gold and let Oxford finish before using my prophet to fire off GA #2. So the next step is to figure out micro for 7 universities and Oxford.
I dug around with numbers a bit more, and I am going to go with this as my tech route:
Optics
Paper
Education
Feudalism*
Guilds*
Banking*
They should all be one-turn techs. I'll start Universities on turn 122 and finish 7 of them at end of turn 124. Then we'll build Oxford in 3 turns on turns 125, 126, & 127. Turn 125 is the last turn of the golden age, so this means we'll run max gold on turns 126 & 127, then fire off the second golden age on turn 128.
Edit: And of course, instead of Feudalism, Guilds, Banking there could be Alphabet, Printing Press, Astronomy if we get a Great Scientist at end of turn 121.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but sounds like you getting astronomy in the near term is fully dependent on getting a great scientist... I understand it's nice to bulb a good chunk of it, but Astronomy seems too important to leave blowing in the winds of fortune.
How many turns of research is it without a scientist?
Ceiliazul Wrote:Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but sounds like you getting astronomy in the near term is fully dependent on getting a great scientist... I understand it's nice to bulb a good chunk of it, but Astronomy seems too important to leave blowing in the winds of fortune.
How many turns of research is it without a scientist?
Yes, this is due for a revision simply because now it looks like Gaspadore is trying to organize a dogpile on me for turn 134. I let slip that my "NAP" with Rego ends t133 and that my my NAP with Yuri ends t134 and next day Rego tells me Commodore is asking if Rego wants to attack me on t134. I think I already said this, but I do like playing with Commodore
Anyway, I will know if I have a GS soon enough. If I do, then we'll go with the bulb plan; if I don't I will tech it manually, probably right after Feudalism for longbows. In the meantime, I'll be putting Caravel builds in wherever I can. And I think I can get to Chemistry by turn 134. That would make things a lot easier.
Just finished turn 118, but the report is going to have to wait. We're bringing a prospective new roommate over for dinner and she should be here soon.
![[Image: pbem26-turn116-whippingTaj.jpg]](http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp323/jwmoore04/CivFanatics/PBEM26/pbem26-turn116-whippingTaj.jpg)
Looks like Rego got doubly hurt on this deal, what with your Taj race evidently going neck-and-neck. You've already forced him to not sandbag Liberalism, which probably keeps all of us in the game. How's the Taj race coming along? We of course won't say anything to Rego one way or the other.
![[Image: pbem26-turn116-siantrade.jpg]](http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp323/jwmoore04/CivFanatics/PBEM26/pbem26-turn116-siantrade.jpg)
). So when you read this Commodore, know I have a ton of respect for you. And I love that we got to do that zerker deal; that was good fun. But Gaspar was right; he pegged it spot on. Rego and I have been attached at the hip all game. I'm doing what I can to keep the alliance secret, and to walk that line, but also to try to come out on top once the alliance has run its course. I can only hope Rego is doing the same.
