You don't have a luxury in your capital? That sucks. However like you said that's made for by religion happiness, so I can't imagine too much of a setback for you.
Being Philosophical and all I practically have to get some sort of early GP, and since elder councils are half price things it seemed obvious to get a early GS and subsequent academy. I'd assume the same is for you and pagan temples?
Yes we do have contact with the Sheaim, who are to the SE of us. Speaking of foreign news, would you be willing to share what lead you to war with "The Bannor". Given my distance from the action all I've heard so far are rumors, and war is always an interesting topic even for the peaceful Elohim.
A NAP until t135 sounds fine with me. Consider it signed.
Until next time,
Einion MonkKnight
Ancient leader of the Elohim[/COLOR]
I'll get back to him in a bit.
He seems reasonable enough to deal with.
Definitely good news about him having Explodo-Zombies on his SE border.
Quote:[COLOR="Yellow"]Excellent. I'm glad we could agree on a NAP so easily.
NAP until t135. Signed by both parties.
No luxuries and dry wheat as my best food tile. Floodplains help but only so much.
Pagan temples aren't great buildings even with a Spiritual discount. I had actually run a couple of sims that were showing that I'd be better off with an Elder Council -->Academy and teching WotEM manually. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to post the revised plan before my 'puter died, so Sciz went ahead with the original plan of bulbing WotEM. It was still a decent play, just not quite as strong as an Academy.
Philo is a great trait IMHO. Cheap elder councils and libraries + extra and earlier GPs make for a very solid economic trait (as evidenced by your GNP numbers)
Thanks for the info on the Sheam. Is there a path to them my scout can take without encroaching on your borders?
The war with the Bannor came about due to a number of factors. He's been settling pretty aggressively and was making demands for more land concessions. I would have preferred peace, but it was obvious he wasn't going to be a good long term partner so I decided that it would be better to strike now while I have an advantage than to wait for him to Rally a Crusade against me.
Thoth.[/COLOR]
and this to Mardoc:
Quote:[COLOR="Yellow"]Hi,
Sorry for not getting back to you yesterday, I was in pretty rough shape.
I would much prefer that your city gets built in the 2n,3w location. The 2w location would severely cramp my city in the area.
How does this strike you?:
You settle the 2N, 3W location on or after t100. Once you have a second Pearl resource on-line I will trade you a Gold resource in exchange for the pearls. We sign a NAP until turn 140.
Now that you mention it, a spread of OO in one of my cities would be quite handy. I've got a very low happy cap and extra temples would be welcome. Such a spread would require Open Borders. At the moment OB would only provide foreign trade routes to the Lanun and enable you to save 33h on a ferry while doing nothing to improve my own situation.
I am willing to sign an OB agreement under the following terms:
1) No units are to be permitted in each others territory (except as outlined in clause 2 )
2) Lanun units will be permitted access through Malakim lands to your city 2N 3W of the Reagents tile provided:
a) That they remain adjacent to the coast while passing through Malakin territory and
b) that no attempt is made to build roads in Malakim territory. Any such attempt will be viewed as a hostile act and a violation of our NAP.
3) The Lanun will send a Zealot to spread OO into my city 2N 1E of the Reagents tile. The Zealot shall arrive no later than t105.
4) The Lanun will send a second Zealot to spread OO to another city of my choice this spread to take place no later than t120.
(should the RNG give me a free spread of OO I will waive the second Zealot).
This would cost you a few more hammers than simply building a boat, but would gain you +1c per turn per city from foreign trade, extra gold for your shrine and land access to your city. Since the OB agreement would be lasting for at least 20 turns you stand to make a very nice profit in terms of commerce gain.
Thoth.[/COLOR]
Current deals in place:
NAP to t130 with Nyktorion + Bannor land split agreement
NAP to t135 with WarriorKnight
War with Mr. Yellow.
Under negotiation:
NAP to t140 with Mardoc + land/resource deal + possible OB/religion spread
Not much happened this turn. Killed a couple of barbs incoming from the desert, moved some troops around in furrin parts. (that and Sciz's 2 move giant showed up right where I want to be building a road in the next turn or two....)
Had an interesting diplo exchange with Mardoc this afternoon:
(TLDR version: His city goes 2n, 3 w of the reagents, we have a NAP until t140, no free OO for the Malakim)
Quote:[COLOR="Yellow"]Hi,
Sorry for not getting back to you yesterday, I was in pretty rough shape.
I would much prefer that your city gets built in the 2n,3w location. The 2w location would severely cramp my city in the area.
How does this strike you?:
You settle the 2N, 3W location on or after t100. Once you have a second Pearl resource on-line I will trade you a Gold resource in exchange for the pearls. We sign a NAP until turn 140.
Now that you mention it, a spread of OO in one of my cities would be quite handy. I've got a very low happy cap and extra temples would be welcome. Such a spread would require Open Borders. At the moment OB would only provide foreign trade routes to the Lanun and enable you to save 33h on a ferry while doing nothing to improve my own situation.
I am willing to sign an OB agreement under the following terms:
1) No units are to be permitted in each others territory (except as outlined in clause 2 )
2) Lanun units will be permitted access through Malakim lands to your city 2N 3W of the Reagents tile provided:
a) That they remain adjacent to the coast while passing through Malakin territory and
b) that no attempt is made to build roads in Malakim territory. Any such attempt will be viewed as a hostile act and a violation of our NAP.
3) The Lanun will send a Zealot to spread OO into my city 2N 1E of the Reagents tile. The Zealot shall arrive no later than t105.
4) The Lanun will send a second Zealot to spread OO to another city of my choice this spread to take place no later than t120.
(should the RNG give me a free spread of OO I will waive the second Zealot).
This would cost you a few more hammers than simply building a boat, but would gain you +1c per turn per city from foreign trade, extra gold for your shrine and land access to your city. Since the OB agreement would be lasting for at least 20 turns you stand to make a very nice profit in terms of commerce gain.
Thoth.[/COLOR]
Quote:[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Well, see, you're asking me to trade hammers for gold. That's something I'm reluctant to do as the Lanun, since I get commerce easily but have to scratch for every hammer. Take the new pearl city for example - it'll have one mine, one forest, the city tile, and in the long term, coves. That's maybe 8-9 hammers after it's fully developed. Meanwhile, it can work oodles of coastal tiles for commerce and food. Honestly, I had thought you'd have Sailing by now, or at least be willing to build a road to my borders by way of a fort, so that you'd gain as well from the deal.
More, I'm not entirely sure I can get Zealots to you by the dates you have in mind, given how slowly they walk. Certainly I can't without slowing down my own conversion efforts. Keep in mind, as a non-Spiritual civ, I first have to build a temple, then the Zealots, then let them walk 1 tile/turn, 2 where I have roads. That's a question I can probably answer once I have the save back in front of me, but I don't want to promise something I can't deliver. As a Spiritual civ, you could manage it a heck of a lot faster, with your half-price temples and Mobility Zealots.
Maybe it would just be easier for me to build a Galley or Trireme, after all. (I'll have to confirm that a skeleton crew Galley can hold cargo). I think I'd need to run them up the coast in a ship to get them to you in time, but if I've got a ship, then it defeats the purpose.
Are you ok with just this piece of the deal, with potential open borders as a future discussion?
"Lanun settle the 2N, 3W location on or after t100. Once Lanun have a second Pearl resource on-line Malakim will trade a Gold resource in exchange for the pearls. We sign a NAP until turn 140 (inclusive)."
In the event we come to an agreement on Open Borders in the future, I'm quite alright with general no scouting/stay on the given path type clauses, and with no-road building clauses.
- Mardoc[/COLOR]
Quote:[COLOR="Yellow"]"Lanun settle the 2N, 3W location on or after t100. Once Lanun have a second Pearl resource on-line Malakim will trade a Gold resource in exchange for the pearls. We sign a NAP until turn 140 (inclusive)."
Signed.
Sailing is on my list of "really nice to have, but not quite essential techs". Roading to the borders of a Raider leader strikes me as being a bit unwise even if I did have the extra worker turns available. Once I do have sailing I would be happy to sign open borders with you (under the restrictions previously mentioned). Obviously as this would result in bi-lateral trade routes I wouldn't be asking for any free religion spreads.
I understand your concerns about trading hammers for commerce as a hammer poor/commerce rich nation. If you haven't used the free missionary from WotD yet, you could send it my way which would remove the need to actually spend hammers on a Temple/Zealot until later. Natural religion spread will tend to spread OO for you (at least to cities close to your holy city) so at least some of your conversion efforts will be done for you.
Another possibility that occurs to me: if I divert my tech path slightly, I can have Marble available to trade within the next few turns. I note that you haven't built the Heron Throne (which gets double production from Marble) yet. As you are a hammer poor coastal nation I suspect this wonder is high up your want list. As a largely inland nation, this wonder holds little attraction for me. If the OB deal isn't doable, we could potentially work out a Marble-->Zealot trade. Having access to Marble would shave ~83 hammers from the cost of the Heron Throne, more than enough to cover the cost of a couple of Zealots (especially considering that you have a free one).
Thoth.
[/COLOR]
Quote:[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Alright, consider it a deal from my end, too. Oh, and an addendum unless you're no longer interested - I'll still abide by the no-culture until T110. (barring a natural OO spread).
I'll have to think about your other possibilities; for instance, I do have Marble in my borders as well, but haven't acquired Masonry yet myself. It's probably worth doing at some point just for the tile yield, if not also the hammer multiplication.
I need the Zealot to get OO into a hammer-rich city; as much as I would like it to spread naturally, I can't rely on it to do so. I don't know the rules of natural spread that well, except for Murphy's Law - it never seems to spread when and where you want it to.
I do intend to build the Heron Throne, I just haven't been able to convince myself it's more important than another worker just yet.
In any case, I suspect that opportunities to work together will continue to appear if we look for them.
- Mardoc
[/COLOR]
Quote:[COLOR="Yellow"]Thanks for agreeing to the "no culture" clause.
My marble is actually on a city tile so I'll have it available the same turn as I tech Masonry.
Fair enough wrt getting OO into a high hammer city soon rather than listening to Murphy's maniacal laughter as OO spreads to every city *except* the one you want it to. I suspect that means that you won't be able to get a Zealot to me in time.
I need to squeeze another worker or two into my queues soonish as well. Big Shiny Statues are nice and all but they do come with an opportunity cost.
I agree that we can likely work together for mutual profit, even if some individual deals don't get worked out.
I'm pretty certain your work boat already spotted it, but there is currently a 2 move/c3 giant in between our future city sites. All this discussion might just be moot if it WTFpwns our settling parties. Last time I saw it was a couple of turns ago when it turned one of my fogbusters into goo. It was 3 N of the Reagents when last spotted.
Thoth.
[/COLOR]
Quote:[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Ah, yes, the Giant with a name. Out of curiosity, do you know who spawned it? I suspect it spawned about the same time as the Fawns who ate my scouts. I hadn't realized he was Mobility, though, so I do appreciate the warning.
And I'm completely glad that he won't enter borders. I suppose that's a silver lining to bring a settler by boat, so long as I don't find a Sea Serpent instead.
Of course, the true irony of Murphy is that now that I've committed to spending hammers, I'll get the spreads for free, at least to every city that already has culture.
- Mardoc
[/COLOR]
Quote:[COLOR="Yellow"]The Giant and the Fawns were Sciz's doing. Cost him 3 warriors pre-turn 30 and I've lost another couple since then (I forgot it was a 2 mover) ><. And yeah, I'm really glad we're not playing with the Orbis modmod.
I haven't seen any sign of sea serpents. There was a Giant Sea Turtle hanging about near where Golden Shanty was built, but I haven't seen it since around t70.
Thoth[/COLOR]
Open borders are worthless to me at the moment (no sailing and no road links) but Mardoc would gain +1 commerce in each of his cities. His point about the Lanun being hammer challenged is valid, they tend to be great for commerce and sucktastic at actually building anything pre Slavery.
Unfortunately, this means I'll likely have to tech OO myself unless I get a lucky spread between now and turn 100. I should still have Cultists in the field by t104-105 which means Golden Igloo will be liberated by t107-109.
I don't like having one of his cities that close to me, but the other alternative is to have hostile neighbours on both borders which doesn't strike me as being a good idea.
My comments about Sailing are true for the situation I'm in. I have 1 coastal city. With Sailing it has the somewhat dubious privilege of being able to build a 107 (quick speed) hammer lighthouse that lets me turn completely cruddy coast tiles into mostly cruddy coast tiles. Foreign trade routes would net me ~5/6 commerce per turn. Nice to have, but not worth the beakers just yet.
From what I can see of the map so far, I'm his obvious first target if he's going military (although he may be able to launch a naval invasion of WarriorKnight). So far we seem to be getting along ok, but I think having a few extra Cultists ready to roll before t140 is a good idea. Just in case.
I'm liking how my treaties are shaping up at the moment, I've got staggered NAPs with the folks most likely to dogpile me and border agreements that are ok with me (although I'd really prefer Mardoc to be confined to his peninsula).
The Explodo-Zombies appear to be on the other side of the world so I don't have any immediate worries about a stack of Pyre Zombies supported by skellies and chaos 1 adepts.
I wonder how WarriorKnight is getting along with Irgy?
I had a good chat session with Nyktorion earlier this evening:
Quote:6:25 PM Thoth: Hi! Are you available for a chat? [COLOR="SeaGreen"]Nyktorion[/COLOR]: Hi!
Of course Thoth: [COLOR="SeaGreen"]Nyktorion[/COLOR]: Thoth: How are the war preparations going?
6:26 PM I see you've revolted to Slavery, Archers, Priests of leaves and tigers?
6:28 PM You should have an easy time taking East Bannor. As near as I can tell, 90% of his forces are in his capital which should leave only token garrisons for you to deal with.
6:29 PM [COLOR="SeaGreen"]Nyktorion[/COLOR]: Yes, I'm in slavery now, and I'm planning the first uses of the whip rather soon. I plan Gilden to be the spearhead of my assault (he should easily have enough XP for Combat 5 or Combat 3 Shock 2) by T105; and I lan to back him up with dexterous archers mainly; I don't have Priesthodd yet, but having the first few tiger priests by that time should indeed be possible
6:30 PM I see, my hawk watching over the battle has seen nine warriors entrenched in Torrolerial last turn
6:31 PM Thoth: He's going to be a bit unhappy when you hit him. I need a source of collateral to take his cap, but that should be online before t110 Nyktorion: Though, I think General Martok will pick off one narly every turn? Thoth: 9 warriors, 4 copper (thanks Mardoc) and 5 regular
6:32 PM Nyktorion: Yes, he'll indeed, he'll be unhappy getting hit from a second side
But I hope he'll smell it coming only a few turns before, whenever he wants to come knocking for a NAP extension
6:34 PM Currently, I should be playing nice enough with him - when my soldier count will increase, he might even think that I'm assembling a defense force for Torrolerial Thoth: General Martock is currently showing 85% odds vs his top defender. Decent enough to take the risk IF I can take the city. Letting the RNG do it's thing for multiple turns will probably screw me. I don't mind losing General Martok if it nets me his cap, but if I loose him at good odds and can't take his cap he'll have a very well promoted defender
6:35 PM Nyktorion: Wow, I haven't simulated this, but from my gut, I'd have expected better odds than 85% for the general
6:36 PM Thoth: As near as I can tell there isn't much he can do even if he does smell your attack coming. He can defend his capital or he can defend East Bannor. He can't do both, especially considering his (soon to be) lack of road network. Nyktorion: right, the two parts are quite a bit apart
6:37 PM It would be ironic if the reason why I don't like him was exactly the reason why a war went bad for him
6:38 PM Thoth: bronze warrior + guerrilla + on a hill + 20% cultural defence +25% warrior in a city defense + fortify bonus = 4 + 135% = 9.4 strength.
6:39 PM Nyktorion: Martok has 12 + a first strike chance, right? Thoth: lol. Was he as pushy about trying to get land concessions with you as he was with me? Or was it just the whole "build a city in your face and settle a Great artist" thing?
6:40 PM Nyktorion: well, the great artist (in Trinity) is actually not the reason for my dislike of him
it's rather his other city (Vallus) Thoth: Yeah modified st 12 + drill 1 ( on my part with that last promotion)
6:41 PM IIRC, you said Vallus is 10! tiles from his cap? Nyktorion: He settled his second city 10 tiles away from his capital, directly in my direction
yes, 10 Thoth: Holy shit. What was he thinking? Nyktorion: and I discovered it when I wanted to settle my fourth city
6:42 PM I settled my fourth city anyway, now the two cities are 3 tiles apart
And the funny thing is Thoth: He's focused way too many hammers on settlers and not enough on workers. City 3 went down t62, city 4 got built t68. Nyktorion: my fourth city is actually a tile closer to my capital than his second city is to his own capital
6:43 PM Thoth: He didn't finish the road to city 4 until turn 84. Nyktorion: Well, I focused many hammers on settlers, too
But, of course, these hammers were a b it less effort for me than for him, thanks to EXP Thoth: So did I, but I slotted in workers between them.
6:44 PM Nyktorion: I also took care to get enough worers inbetween
*workers Thoth: EXP is an underrated trait in FFH IMO. 145h for a quick speed settler vs 67 for a BTS quick speed settler. Exp = oodles of saved hammers early when it counts.
6:45 PM Nyktorion: oh yes
super imperialistic in a mod where you need to invest much more hammers into settlers
6:46 PM that double settler speed is exactly what I announced to be looking forward to with Thessa in the first post of my spoiler thread
6:47 PM Thoth: When I took the game back over from Sciz I went on a bit of a worker building program. I finished off worker #8 on t73.
6:48 PM Nyktorion: Okay, I only have six workers; but also less cities Thoth: Exp fades a bit in the mid to late game, but it's freakin awesome for getting off to a fast start.
6:49 PM Nyktorion: Well, for mid to late game, there's arcane
And Ljosalfar stuff in general
6:50 PM Though, I think that Varn Gosam's traits are not too bad either
SPI seems quite nice with FFH's very improved priests, and the importance of religion
6:51 PM Thoth: Arcane is decent enough. Not my favourite trait but handy if you're going up the magic tree. Plus easy health/happy from GoN forests. Yeah, pretty nice. The Ljos take forever to get going, but they're pretty damn good once they do. Nyktorion: And CRE is nice for the start, too, and changable later
6:54 PM Thoth: I like SPI in FFH, although only being able to swap civics every 10 turns hurts a bit (especially on quick). Cre is a nice starting trait, easy border pops plus fast 2nd and 3rd pops in the cap. And Adaptive is always nice (better when you have a strong starting trait, Cassiel gets a bit screwed with Industrious for the first 70 turns, Cardith Lorda can get off to some very fast starts if he's left alone.)
6:55 PM Religion is turning out to be key for me this game. Without a state religion + religion civic my cities would be happy capped at size 5 (6 for the cap). Not a pretty picture.
6:56 PM Nyktorion: Yeah, in FFH the happy cap seems even harder than in BTS
6:57 PM with all the abundant food from agriculture farms, but no slavery in the very early game
7:00 PM One more thing about your war with the Bannor.
I hope you don't mind that I am having trading relations with mr. Yellow, until T105
7:01 PM Of course, trading copper is a taboo
7:02 PM And our NAP also forbids that I send any military defenders
7:03 PM However, things like open borders, or a unit of silk would make me a bit more believable towards Mr. Yellow (and get me a small economic bonus of my own, too)
7:08 PM Thoth: I wasn't too happy when I saw you were gifting him silk, but it's not a big deal. So long as he doesn't get his hands on any more copper all is well.
7:09 PM Nyktorion: Well, it wasn't really a gift; he promised to send me a unit of cotton of his own, in return; he told me this would take 2-3 more turns, though Thoth: I'm not 100% sure how far your hawk managed to scout in my Westlands, but I would appreciate it if you didn't trade maps with Mr. Yellow. If he gets tile visibility along my northern coastline, his trade route with Mardoc will reopen which would allow Mardoc to gift him copper again.
7:12 PM The silk isn't a huge deal, there isn't much he can do with it. It replaces the gems I pillaged a turn or two ago so he breaks even in happy cap.
7:14 PM I don't mind about the OB at all. He's only getting 3 c/turn out of the deal. Astrum wasn't trade connected to his capital when I invaded, and the partial road he had built is pillaged now. Nyktorion: I can tell you that we have not traded our world maps yet; and now that I know the strategic importance of the visibility of these tiles, I certainly won't do this trade in the future, either. Thoth: Cool. Thanks.
7:15 PM I don't blame Mardoc for gifting him copper. After all, I'd do the same in his position. OTOH, I'd be able to snipe a unit or two a turn with good odds if he hadn't.
12 minutes
7:28 PM Thoth: I need to go and make myself some supper. Nice chatting with you.
7:29 PM Nyktorion: Okay, enjoy your meal; I think I'm going soon, too, for some sleep
Bye bye Thoth: Good night.
I had been concerned that his gift of Silks might indicate he was getting cold feet about taking East Bannor, however he seems to be onboard for the double team on the Bannor. He'll have a much easier time taking his share of Mr. Yellows current territory than I will, but once Operation Fishface goes down it'll be curtains for the Bannor capital.
Order was FIDL this turn. Not sure if WarriorKnight researched it honestly (he's had the gnp to do it) or if someone popped a missionary from a lair.
Swapped civics around this turn:
Military State is mainly for the free unit support, though the military production boost will be nice.
2 markets completed at eot taking me to 91 bpt/-3 gpt @70%.
Laying plans for Golden Wigwam:
The giant you can see in the screenshot is the C3/light giant. It paused to gather courage at eot, so I expect it to kill the c1/g1 warrior at eot 95. Hopefully it will take enough damage that I can kill it with either the sword or a c2 warrior. If it doesn't it will have enough exp to promote again.
Another giant wandered into my fov at eot 94, depending on where it moves next turn it may or may not pose a danger to my settling plans. I suspect I'm going to loose 2-3 warriors but I should be able to found according to plan.
Planning for a Pyre pop:
I should be able to pop the Pyre t 96 without risk of any spawns. I'll have 2 warriors exposed to attacks out of the barb city (2 archers, 1 c1 war, 1 d1 war) so I'll likely loose a warrior ibt. I should be able to capture the barb city t 97/98. Once that happens I can move to capture Astrum ~t103-104.
Philo finished up at eot, Priesthood should take 6-7 turns from there. If I have to research OO I should be able to fire the Worldspell circa t106 for some lovely waterwalking/mobility/Tsunami casting priests.
Cultists have limited uses, but when they're good they are VERY good. They should serve as a deterrent against Mardoc and his coastal cities.
Floodplains help but only so much.
Once I do have sailing I would be happy to sign open borders with you (under the restrictions previously mentioned). Obviously as this would result in bi-lateral trade routes I wouldn't be asking for any free religion spreads.
on my part with that last promotion)
![[Image: t94civicswap.jpg]](http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5448/t94civicswap.jpg)
![[Image: t94westlandsannotated.jpg]](http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7018/t94westlandsannotated.jpg)
![[Image: t94planningforthepyre.jpg]](http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/3060/t94planningforthepyre.jpg)
