This Time for Sure: Mardoc reprises the Lanun

[Thoth]

...sorry . I knew there had to be something more urgent than an OO temple, I just couldn't figure out what it was. Yeah, Dereptus makes sense. OTOH - Mainmast is such an awesome city that we can still do Dereptus quite soon.

*grumble* *grumble*

Pretty certain there was an email/post that suggested we overflow into Deruptus/build WB/overflow into Deruptus/Wb/finish Deruptus in Mainmast.

Might as well finish the damned temple (with overflow from a Workboat) before the Brewery. It does get us +1 happy in Mainmast (we don't want to run specialists in Mainmast until we hit size 21....work those tiles )

Excess food can always be turned into workers/settlers.

[Thoth]

and make sure to grab the Pigs back in Mainmast next turn....the extra hammer brings us to 20 base hammers/turn

[Mardoc]

and make sure to grab the Pigs back in Mainmast next turn....the extra hammer brings us to 20 base hammers/turn

Ok, I guess. What's so special about 20? It does let Mainmast grow in 1 instead of 2, though, and Mainmast has better tiles for the time being.

Our happy excess is definitely shrinking

[Mardoc]

Played in a rush this morning in hopes of seeing the turn again this evening. We just keep chugging along, growing like a weed. Probably smoking some too, with the turn flying by in three minutes, but I'll take care tonight. Killed a barb in the north, a new one showed up in the south. Fortunately our warrior focus while growing is starting to pay off, I don't foresee any trouble here.

Our new coastal city in the north, Tiller, was fortunate enough to recieve a free OO spread last turn . That makes 5 cities so far to receive culture without spending a single hammer. You're a genius, Thoth!

Of course that also means we need workboats and workers yesterday; can't fix the worker problem until we're done growing, but we do have our first workboat en route to the clams in the north. Odds are also pretty good that we'll need to boat some pearls in the next few turns, with four coastal cities, all with culture .

So...as we can see quite clearly from the past couple-few turns, without a plan, I flounder. Let's try to come up with some overarching goals, therefore, so I can mess fewer things up.

We're currently at 9 workers for 8 cities - I view 16 as an absolute minimum, and it wouldn't hurt to go all the way to 24 before we resume Settlering. On the one hand, we can grow onto coastal tiles...on the other, we'll be growing every city super-fast. Just about every city, except Mainmast, will therefore spend a good deal of time worker-building. I figure they certainly need to do worker construction once they hit their happy caps - probably it also makes sense to do that in any city set to grow onto a bare grass tile.

We still need a few more warriors; I want to free up our experienced guys to try to unlock the Form of the Titan, plus have garrisons, plus have a bit of a reaction force.

Once we're comfortable on workers and warriors (which honestly shouldn't take that long, we've got a bunch of nice cities), it'll be time to mix in a few more settlers, only this time keeping our worker/warrior ratio up simultaneously. I want to fill our wedge, while simultaneously keeping our ferries busy grabbing islands.

Other plans? I think Mainmast will alternate between building boats (and ships) and Dereptus with the overflow, probably even after hitting its happy cap. It's got too many hammers for me to want it to build workers. I do agree, on reflection, that Mizzenmast will recieve Heron Throne soon - it's not the absolute best site for it, but it's got hammers and is good enough. Better to get the wonder now than to try for an optimal plant and lose it to the Malakim . I'm still hoping to find Marble before starting, but if it's not in a near offshore island, then we'll have to build it directly.

I want at least 4 Galleys soon - one to explore north, one south, one to try to cross the ocean to the southwest, and one to alternate between island exploration and settling party ferrying. Probably would do well to add a fifth for that as well.

I think that OO missionaries are actually a pretty low priority, it's spreading nicely. We do want to get the Necronomicon and an Academy soon, though - I'll task Poopdeck with that. It's about to start having to give its good tiles back to Mainmast, anyway.

Our tech plans are fairly clear - finish Sailing, then head to Trade. After that...I dunno. First thought is to go for Festivals, then up to Sanitation (perhaps via Drama?). We'll need to pick up Warfare and MilStrat in time to build some Command Posts (and if lucky, a Titan). Sometime soon we should add Iron Working to turbocharge our coastal cities. And Hunting. In any event, this will all take long enough that we can revisit the subject.

[Thoth]

Ok, I guess. What's so special about 20? It does let Mainmast grow in 1 instead of 2, though, and Mainmast has better tiles for the time being.

20 hammers gets an extra hammer from GK and an extra hammer from the Sea Haven when building boats. And the extra food is nice.

Once Deruptus is in, we'll want to steal the Dyes back from Poopdeck (possibly sooner).

Poopdeck still has some riverside grass forests that can be chopped and farmed (chops going into EC/Temple of OO). Getting the PH mined is a higher priority, but those farms will help support 2 Sages and build some workers as well.

Depending on the state of development, I think 12 workers will probably be enough for the moment. We'll want our next few cities offshore (although we also want one settler to grab the Incence as well). Coastal cities don't need as much worker support as they can always work coastal tiles.


Civics wise: I think we'll want Foreign Trade/Undercouncil as our next swap (both available with Trade).

Which means City States is looking better than Aristocracy.

Tech path: Finish Sailing then either HBR (Mob 1, Stables in Hold + some Horsemen, discount on Trade)/writing/Trade or Writing/Trade.

Straight to Trade gets us the tech a bit faster, HBR first gets it cheaper and picks up a very useful tech along the way.

After that....Warfare/Cartography (swap into City States/Military State)

We'll want Festivals and CoL as well, probably before Warfare/Cartograpy to let the Civic swap timer expire.

[Mardoc]

Poopdeck still has some riverside grass forests that can be chopped and farmed (chops going into EC/Temple of OO). Getting the PH mined is a higher priority, but those farms will help support 2 Sages and build some workers as well.

Yes...but well, every city has tiles that need improved. Even Mainmast needs some more tiles improved. My workers are swamped! I've got very little idea what's a priority at the moment - is a farm to enable a Sage higher priority than cows at a new city? We need everything!

Depending on the state of development, I think 12 workers will probably be enough for the moment. We'll want our next few cities offshore (although we also want one settler to grab the Incence as well). Coastal cities don't need as much worker support as they can always work coastal tiles.

Hmm. On the one hand, I see your point about offshore cities, presuming that it's islands and not a secondary continent. On the other - we're already well behind on our improved tiles, and bumping up the happy cap like this just makes it worse. I'll have to actually look closely at the situation, I think.

I can agree to settle offshore cities earlier in the worker shortage than more mainland cities, that's for sure. You're right that they need minimal worker support (although a lot of workboats)

Civics wise: I think we'll want Foreign Trade/Undercouncil as our next swap (both available with Trade).

Which means City States is looking better than Aristocracy.

Tech path: Finish Sailing then either HBR (Mob 1, Stables in Hold + some Horsemen, discount on Trade)/writing/Trade or Writing/Trade.

Straight to Trade gets us the tech a bit faster, HBR first gets it cheaper and picks up a very useful tech along the way.

After that....Warfare/Cartography (swap into City States/Military State)

We'll want Festivals and CoL as well, probably before Warfare/Cartograpy to let the Civic swap timer expire.

I can mostly agree with this. I suspect that the HBR discount isn't worth it - Trade plus Foreign Trade, at the present moment, is worth (3 TR's in four cities) + (2 TR's in four cities) = 20 gpt. 40+ gpt if we have an offshore city in time. I think that means that it's honestly faster to research Trade, then HBR. I'll have to do the math to confirm.

Why MilState, though? We get cash rushing with Undercouncil, so it's just the military support and drafting that we'd gain. I tend to think we'd rather have the 2XP from Apprenticeship.

Although - I suppose that military support is a dramatic economic boon, while we're still focused on economy and not on war. Ok, I suppose I can see going that route - swap back to Apprenticeship whenever we abandon Foreign Trade for Conquest, but otherwise continue to try for minimum military investment and everything toward the snowball.

[Thoth]

Yes...but well, every city has tiles that need improved. Even Mainmast needs some more tiles improved. My workers are swamped! I've got very little idea what's a priority at the moment - is a farm to enable a Sage higher priority than cows at a new city? We need everything!

Indeed we want a lot of things from our workers.

We're not suffering too badly in terms of numbers, 10 is ok for now.

But they're horribly possitioned and some of our cities have more improved tiles than they can work and multiple workers near them, while our northern expansion cities desperately need worker turns and have insufficient workers near them.

Hold should be working two farms, not a farm and the gems. It needs a third and possibly a fourth farm ASAP.

Bilge has more improved tiles than it can work, but needs an additional farm or two.

Mainmast needs 2 more workers around it to get the rest of it's tiles cottaged, especially shared tiles.

Poopdeck should work the cottage that will complete on t75 (AFTER SWAPPING THAT TILE TO MAINMAST FOR THE CHOP INTO THE BREWERY....a chop that could have waited. CHOPPING IS A POOR USE OF WORKER TURNS IN FFH (certain exceptions apply). Improve bare grasslands before chops. 8 h for 3 worker turns is a lousy exchange. Chop when you need to improve that tile or are desperate for a hammer boost and have mined all your bare hills.

We need to relocate some of the workers in the East towards Mainmast and the north. We'll loose a couple of worker turns in the process (the price of not doing up a worker plan 10 turns ago).

Hmm. On the one hand, I see your point about offshore cities, presuming that it's islands and not a secondary continent. On the other - we're already well behind on our improved tiles, and bumping up the happy cap like this just makes it worse. I'll have to actually look closely at the situation, I think.

Offshore cities will be coastal (at least the first few) and justify their existance by providing boosted trade routes....if needs be they can always work 2f/2c coast tiles while we catch up with WB/Worker turns.

I can agree to settle offshore cities earlier in the worker shortage than more mainland cities, that's for sure. You're right that they need minimal worker support (although a lot of workboats)

Remember, WB production gets a boost from Sea Havens.

I can mostly agree with this. I suspect that the HBR discount isn't worth it - Trade plus Foreign Trade, at the present moment, is worth (3 TR's in four cities) + (2 TR's in four cities) = 20 gpt. 40+ gpt if we have an offshore city in time. I think that means that it's honestly faster to research Trade, then HBR. I'll have to do the math to confirm.

Why MilState, though? We get cash rushing with Undercouncil, so it's just the military support and drafting that we'd gain. I tend to think we'd rather have the 2XP from Apprenticeship.

Although - I suppose that military support is a dramatic economic boon, while we're still focused on economy and not on war. Ok, I suppose I can see going that route - swap back to Apprenticeship whenever we abandon Foreign Trade for Conquest, but otherwise continue to try for minimum military investment and everything toward the snowball.

Mil State: +1 unit support for each pop point we have, +15% to Military Production, drafting (we'll have cash rushing from UC).

If we can bag the FotT we won't have to put up with Apprenticeship's -10% hammer hit and can still produce level 4 units out of the box with Conquest and Command Posts.

[Mardoc]

Alright, I took steps to get the worker situation back toward what you recommend. Mostly moving workers north and west.

In other news - Sailing is in! So...do we have Pearls?

Sort of. Not soon.


Also - HBR is a 4-turn tech, that would increase the prereq on Trade, a 500 beaker tech (all numbers rough). So - the earlier trade routes almost exactly equal the prereq savings - but then all our coves and cottages get double growth 4 turns earlier, too. And we might have more cities by then, perhaps. I think I'm simply going Writing -> Trade .

Finally - we do have access to Marble! So we'll want to slip in Masonry sometime post-Trade, for that half-price Heron Throne. It might be worth trying for the Bone Palace somewhere, too.

[Thoth]

Alright, I took steps to get the worker situation back toward what you recommend. Mostly moving workers north and west.

In other news - Sailing is in! So...do we have Pearls?

Sort of. Not soon.


Also - HBR is a 4-turn tech, that would increase the prereq on Trade, a 500 beaker tech (all numbers rough). So - the earlier trade routes almost exactly equal the prereq savings - but then all our coves and cottages get double growth 4 turns earlier, too. And we might have more cities by then, perhaps. I think I'm simply going Writing -> Trade .

Finally - we do have access to Marble! So we'll want to slip in Masonry sometime post-Trade, for that half-price Heron Throne. It might be worth trying for the Bone Palace somewhere, too.

Agreed (mostly). Bear in mind we do want HBR (for all the usual reasons ) I'm not completely convinced either way.

Pearls location sucks. But at least we'll (eventually) have them.

If we go Masonry immediately after Trade and settle *on* the Marble (with either our next settler or the one after that....we still have the ability to push them out very quickly in Mainmast and at a decent pace in Topsail and Mizzenmast) we can get the HT in Mizzenmast ~6 turns after settling the Marble city.

Marble also plays into an early NE (in Poopdeck? It'll never be a good commerce city, but has the food to support lots of specs) and as you say, a possible run at the Bone Palace (which would be awesome with the pop count we have....currently 31%!!!! of the world's total and growing fast)

[Mardoc]

Agreed (mostly). Bear in mind we do want HBR (for all the usual reasons ) I'm not completely convinced either way.

Well - we could go Trade then HBR . I agree we want it, it's just that it appears the magnitude of the benefits from Trade are so huge that having them four turns earlier is enough to pay for the missing prereq bonus, even if we fail to expand beforehand. If we get an offshore city or two founded, then it's positive.