[Spoilers] Adrien and Mardoc relax and play civ

[GermanJoey]

Your sim.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/kvmc6d...wordWBSave

[AdrienIer]

Thanks ! I'll take a look after the total war weekend ends.

This turn I found another potential spot for the first settler :

[Mardoc]

FYI, I'm back and will figure out the mod install and look around tomorrow.

Looks like I've got this week to get in shape to take over as turnplayer?

[Mardoc]

Your sim.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/kvmc6d...wordWBSave

Thanks! That's a handy tool you've made.

[AdrienIer]

Thanks Joey, it took some time but I finally figured how to load it as RtR so I'm finally ready to sim

Mardoc, I'm leaving next monday so yeah you'll have to get up to speed this week. This being the early game there isn't anything too important to discuss, and we have a week to agree on a sim, I doubt you'll take more than 2mn to get the feel of the game.

Edit : actually I simmed a little and building 3 (!) warriors before settler seems pretty good. The settler is done in 5t and then we can go directly worker->settler for a second one right away.

[Mardoc]

Installed mod and logged in just fine. Since you haven't had time for a screenie showing the most recent scouting, I'll do that. I assume the plan is to have the scout keep spiraling around the cap looking for city locations?







Now I just need to engage brain .

I can't see any objection to your planned tech path, at least until Agri. Enabling hammer production to go with Imperialistic seems a no brainer. And although grain is rare, we will need it - plus of course en route to granaries. I suspect the next two after Agri should be Wheel and Pottery, but I'm open to discussion there. Edit: Actually, if you agree with my dotmap, Wheel should come before Agri, I think.

I haven't tried to sim any, and probably won't. But I do want clarification - you mean finish worker, build three warriors while growing at max speed, handbuild settler? Or is there a whip involved? Which order did you improve tiles? I would think pig then deer then sheep then...um...maybe mine the plains hill? Followed by Furs?

I do have some thoughts on the dotmap, though.




I'm not a huge fan of your 'maybe' site, not unless we successfully grab a religion, which is kinda risky in a pitboss. Too much of its nice stuff is second ring. I'd move it to have only two of the resources, but both first ring. I like the deer better, but that would require losing the plains hill, so I guess I propose 1S for this city. Does require Fishing, and probably Sailing, though. I could also see a case for moving it 1SE, for wheat and borrowed pigs. That would have the benefit of letting it build cottages for the cap, and a quick start, at the cost of a bunch of long term potential. But it would let us build another city on that western peninsula; depending on seafood, that might be a worthwhile trade.

That said, I wouldn't make it second city in any event. I'd rather go south for that, given current information. Which would mean we have some time to decide what exactly to do with 'maybe' in the west.

At first I didn't like 'nice', but then I realized it can steal the capital's pigs. Three food is probably overkill for the cap anyway, at least until we can get a heck of a lot more happiness. So I like this site for #2. Silver is a very nice icing.

I'd suggest the pigs/sheep for #3 - no particular ability to work with our other cities, but it claims two nice resource tiles without needing any more tech, and minimal worker turns or infra required. Basically a pure REX city. I guess with the high food/low hammers, it would tend to be a worker pump while the other two can be settler/military? Either that, or it would lean heavily on the whip - maybe more reasonable with furs/silver for early happiness.

And then for 4, I would hope to go east or north, honestly. The west is probably backlines, doesn't seem super strong, and I want to finish scouting before we commit to anything.

Anyway, thoughts? Am I off base, or does this make sense to you?

[AdrienIer]

It makes sense don't worry

Scout is going NNE next turn, and will take a look at the east and north of the cap next. Most likely he'll get killed at some point but if he doesn't we can then double back to take a look at the west. Agri would be needed for the western site, we'd need it as soon as the city is built. Yes my sim is worker->warrior->warrior->warrior->settler with the worker improving the pigs then deer then sheep then furs, then I mined/chopped (dunno if the end is optimal maybe you're right and mine/chopping before camping the fur is better). That pushes the city to size 4 which allows double whipping (still efficient on settlers with the +60% from imp).

I tend to space my cities too much but remember that we have myst from the start. Getting a religion is definitely a possibility, or at worst we can chop a monument. Chop monument->slowbuild WB so that it's there just in time for the pop. In any case I think "nice" is probably a better idea for the first settler, shared pigs, deer and silver make for a good combo. Even as org we'll need some commerce to get to currency and COL without going bankrupt and the early silver will help.

I don't want to start planning city n°4 before we've scouted more and found other players.

[Mardoc]

Scout is going NNE next turn,

I think I would go E instead, and then head north once we're a couple tiles wider radius. We'll get vision on the close tiles when the borders pop in, what, 17 more turns? I think we can wait that long in exchange for another row of tiles further out.

Hmm. Although, I guess this is Normal, which makes it a little longer. Still, I want to be 2 tiles further east before we go north so we get a three tile wide strip revealed.

will take a look at the east and north of the cap next. Most likely he'll get killed at some point but if he doesn't we can then double back to take a look at the west.

Ok, cool, I'm in agreement here. I want vision on everything, yesterday, but east and north seems most urgent.

Agri would be needed for the western site, we'd need it as soon as the city is built.

Ok, so wait and see on the relative pace of tech vs. expansion. AH-Mining-Bronze still makes sense and will last us a while.

Yes my sim is worker->warrior->warrior->warrior->settler with the worker improving the pigs then deer then sheep then furs, then I mined/chopped (dunno if the end is optimal maybe you're right and mine/chopping before camping the fur is better). That pushes the city to size 4 which allows double whipping (still efficient on settlers with the +60% from imp).

I kinda feel that we shouldn't whip until we can get a granary. But early game is my weakest phase, I could be wrong about that. So you're saying the first settler would be whipped? That makes a big difference on the value of an early mine.

On the furs - camp is worth what, +2 gpt? And we probably won't have wheel yet. We'll definitely want to improve the tile for the happiness, I just doubt we actually want to work the tile for a while. Ideally we can road it right when camping it to save the worker turns.

I tend to space my cities too much but remember that we have myst from the start. Getting a religion is definitely a possibility, or at worst we can chop a monument.

True - it's just that is at the cost of what else we might be chopping. Granary, another settler, etc. It's not REX if we're pausing each city for a bunch of infra.

On the other hand, if we're starting with Myst, it would be nice to get some benefit from it. Have you checked # of land tiles yet? That should give a feel for the value of religion and early maintenance costs. If we do go for a religion, when do you think we should slip it in?

I dunno. The further in the future this city is, the less I'll push for first-ring-only. Easier to find the investment for a border pop later on. My only big concern is possibly abandoning nice seafood off to the west.

In any case I think "nice" is probably a better idea for the first settler, shared pigs, deer and silver make for a good combo.

Ok, we're in agreement here then.

Even as org we'll need some commerce to get to currency and COL without going bankrupt and the early silver will help.

Plus enhanced happy cap. Slavery in size four cities is really really annoying.

I don't want to start planning city n°4 before we've scouted more and found other players.

Yeah, consider my comments on anything past 'nice' and pigs/sheep as brainstorming, not planning. I tend to think out loud when I play.

[AdrienIer]

Scout is going NNE next turn,

I think I would go E instead, and then head north once we're a couple tiles wider radius. We'll get vision on the close tiles when the borders pop in, what, 17 more turns? I think we can wait that long in exchange for another row of tiles further out.

Hmm. Although, I guess this is Normal, which makes it a little longer. Still, I want to be 2 tiles further east before we go north so we get a three tile wide strip revealed.

will take a look at the east and north of the cap next. Most likely he'll get killed at some point but if he doesn't we can then double back to take a look at the west.

Ok, cool, I'm in agreement here. I want vision on everything, yesterday, but east and north seems most urgent.

Agri would be needed for the western site, we'd need it as soon as the city is built.

Ok, so wait and see on the relative pace of tech vs. expansion. AH-Mining-Bronze still makes sense and will last us a while.

Yes my sim is worker->warrior->warrior->warrior->settler with the worker improving the pigs then deer then sheep then furs, then I mined/chopped (dunno if the end is optimal maybe you're right and mine/chopping before camping the fur is better). That pushes the city to size 4 which allows double whipping (still efficient on settlers with the +60% from imp).

I kinda feel that we shouldn't whip until we can get a granary. But early game is my weakest phase, I could be wrong about that. So you're saying the first settler would be whipped? That makes a big difference on the value of an early mine.

On the furs - camp is worth what, +2 gpt? And we probably won't have wheel yet. We'll definitely want to improve the tile for the happiness, I just doubt we actually want to work the tile for a while. Ideally we can road it right when camping it to save the worker turns.

I tend to space my cities too much but remember that we have myst from the start. Getting a religion is definitely a possibility, or at worst we can chop a monument.

True - it's just that is at the cost of what else we might be chopping. Granary, another settler, etc. It's not REX if we're pausing each city for a bunch of infra.

On the other hand, if we're starting with Myst, it would be nice to get some benefit from it. Have you checked # of land tiles yet? That should give a feel for the value of religion and early maintenance costs. If we do go for a religion, when do you think we should slip it in?

I dunno. The further in the future this city is, the less I'll push for first-ring-only. Easier to find the investment for a border pop later on. My only big concern is possibly abandoning nice seafood off to the west.

In any case I think "nice" is probably a better idea for the first settler, shared pigs, deer and silver make for a good combo.

Ok, we're in agreement here then.

Even as org we'll need some commerce to get to currency and COL without going bankrupt and the early silver will help.

Plus enhanced happy cap. Slavery in size four cities is really really annoying.

I don't want to start planning city n°4 before we've scouted more and found other players.

Yeah, consider my comments on anything past 'nice' and pigs/sheep as brainstorming, not planning. I tend to think out loud when I play.

Keep in mind that my brain is off due to the heat so maybe some of my comments may be complete nonsense.

If we're going for 3 warriors early one can go SE to check the area. Furs are +3c which is pretty good. Mining the forest GH is +1h and +1c (because of river). A 1/2/4 against a 1/3/1 in the end I think. IDK both seem acceptable but I like to get resources first. Also I think in my sim I had roads by the time the furs were on, do you mind running a simple sim worker warrior x 3 settler and worker camps fur to check ? SW city doesn't need agri so we can go wheel->agri->pottery.

Whipping the settler is good in theory. If in practice it only gives us the settler a turn or two earlier it's better to wait. Can't remember what I did in my sim. I should re-sim to make sure... I guess I can check the number of tiles next turn, it's only Fenn and Whosit we're waiting for now.

The basic techs are mining BW wheel agri hunting pottery AH if we're going for the "nice" site first. Then meditation ? Then fishing agri writing and stuff.

[Mardoc]

Keep in mind that my brain is off due to the heat so maybe some of my comments may be complete nonsense.

K .

Doesn't really seem like it to me so far, though.

If we're going for 3 warriors early one can go SE to check the area.

Should he be a warrior at all, then? Maybe 2 warriors/1 scout?

I'm ok with that move as long as the next turn we also have at least one east in our movement. Remember we're optimizing for # of tiles revealed, not for scout speed.

Furs are +3c which is pretty good. Mining the forest GH is +1h and +1c (because of river). A 1/2/4 against a 1/3/1 in the end I think. IDK both seem acceptable but I like to get resources first.

Ah, I forgot that the tile base yield is still pretty good, and yeah, was wrong about the camp too. And definitely if we have Wheel by then it'll be the priority. My instincts might be off a bit by playing so much FFH, I tend to think of early techs as slow and unreliable.

I was thinking the mine would be plains hill, though. Mostly because we'll have food coming out our ears.

Also I think in my sim I had roads by the time the furs were on, do you mind running a simple sim worker warrior x 3 settler and worker camps fur to check ? SW city doesn't need agri so we can go wheel->agri->pottery.

Sure, I guess I can try that. Is the file Joey gave us a worldbuilder save or a single player one? What'd you have to do to use it?

The basic techs are mining BW wheel agri hunting pottery AH if we're going for the "nice" site first. Then meditation ? Then fishing agri writing and stuff.

Subject to events, this sounds like a good plan. I assume that we wouldn't push for Org Religion until after Currency, but just Meditation is a pretty small investment.