[SPOILERS] naufragar, Charriu, and Zalson's Threepenny Opera

[Zalson]

Oh, I think the advantage to creative isn't that you can easily settle wide, but that you don't have to devote 30/40 hammers to popping the border. Instead, you can devote those hammers to a MP unit/army/wealth builds.

Obviously one should spread religion via missionaries if you have the shrine or AP. But without, I don't think it's necessary: and that's a big savings.

[naufragar]

Welcome, Zalson!

The tech order I tried out was Hunting-Mining-Bronze Working-Pottery. Then I went Animal Husbandry, but I think the choice between AH and Archery will be determined by our neighbors. If we put off mining, we have nothing to do but road. There's one or two tiles that we can cottage with an early pottery, but just not enough. My plan calls for two chops, and it feels nice to save the cap's forests for later. (Speaking of, Charriu, when I played out farming the rice before mining the hill, I got a worker out of city #2 by turn 39, but at the cost of fewer improvements and more forests chopped. The play there was worker-warrior-warrior-settler rather than worker-war-war-worker. I could have missed better moves, but I think the mine is the better second improvement.) The trouble with an early second worker is the same trouble with delaying mining. We just have nothing for a second worker to do besides road. Feels bad to delay our Exp workers, but I can't figure out a way around it.

As for scouting, Zalson, if there's a fish only accessible from the westernmost land, we're just going to have to cry. Like so:   We have to settle in place. (For a second, I thought the tile 1E of our settler was clear (because I had chopped it in sim), so I started to wonder if we could salvage the hypothetical fish by moving off the plains hill without losing hammers on our worker thanks to Exp. Luckily it's forested, so we're definitely settling in place. Would've been cool to use Exp that way. Charriu, I see your point about wanting to get distance from the capitol. By about turn 20 we finish the second warrior and have to decide if we're go worker or settler next. By then we need to know our second city spot. I think we can send our first warrior north, so even if our scout has terrible luck we should get the necessary info. Ok. You've convinced me.



Edit: People, make your picks! If we don't start for another week, I'll sim myself to death.

[naufragar]

Thanks, Krill, for finalizing picks.

superdeath - Isabella (SPI, EXP) of Carthage (Fishing/Mining/Cothon/Numidian)

Mr. Cairo Pericles (CRE, PHI) of Sumeria (Wheel/Agri/Vulture/Ziggurat)

Rusten - Saladin (PRO/SPI) of the Celts (Myst/Hunting/Dun/Gallic Warrior)

Gavagai - Zara (CRE/ORG) of the Dutch (Fishing/Agri/EIM/Dike)

Commodore Gilgamesh (CRE/PRO) of Mali (Mining/Wheel/Skirmisher/Mint)

naufragar - Suryavarman (CRE/EXP) of Babylon (Wheel/Agri/Bowman/Garden)

Donovan Zoi - Hannibal (FIN/CHM) of Ottoman (Wheel/Agri/Janissary/Hamam)

BGN/Xenu - Mao Zedong (EXP/PRO) of Persia (Agri/Hunting/Immortal/Apothecary)

People expect a knife fight.

[naufragar]

I promised you a tier list, and a tier list you shall have.

Tier One: Players I respect and who have a chance to win the game if luck breaks their way, arranged in order of Krill's pick list

superdeath:

The player: Superdeath likes to play civ4. Maybe even more than me! He started very green in PB38 but has since played in every pitboss hosted. I have only dipped into 39 and 40 occassionally (so I won't be spoiling anything for my dedlurkers who are playing him in 40!), but he seems to have improved with every game. He is hyper-aggressive, constantly thinking how he can shank his neighbor. He has a tendency to build a little extra military before other players and then opportunistically play havoc with their plans. Paradoxically, while he builds a bit more offense early to visit the neighbors, he seems to run real skimpy farmer's gambits at home. He doesn't seem like the kind of player to let early transgressions slide, so if we do want to capitalize on a potential farmer's gambit call, we'll have to make it count.
The leader/civ: I see the reasoning behind Isabella, I think. Exp is your early game trait, and Spi allows you to run economic civics on a crowded map without worrying about getting caught without slavery. Spi is not newb friendly, but superdeath is rapidly gaining veterancy ranks. Superdeath has a solid UU in Carthage's Numidian. He loves ancient era uniques and will absolutely use them. On top of that, he loves chariots (because why not? They are the gold standard for ancient era aggression.) It should hopefully take him a bit to get to Numids with his starting techs, and our bowman do alright against them (unlike some other UUs we will mention). Big&Small has long coast lines. Cothons will be stellar.

Mr. Cairo:

The player: I don't really know Cairo too well. We neighbored each other in '38, but that was a very quiet border. He has won a PB here, I think? In 38 he had no qualms snacking on Donovan Zoi. I don't really know much about him, sorry.
The leader/civ: TBS has recently shown off the power of Pericles, but Phi is a tricky thing to use. Like superdeath, Cairo has an early game trait paired with a later. In a field with a lot of early traits, perhaps this gives him the gas to overcome others. I could see some cute plays with great scientists to blow his tech rate sky high on what will likely be a constrained (by both land and sparse food) map. The Ziggurat helps this. The vulture? Well, prepare for axe rushes and you've prepared for vultures. Don't, and the result's the same.

Rusten:

The player: Mack referred to him as a legend. Do I need to say more? Rusten has played top notch civ for forever; Mack says he learned from Rusten back in the day. It was perhaps an indictment on RB snobbishness (or just mine) that in PB38 I underestimated him because he hadn't played on this site. But Rusten is a consumate professional who has one of the leaders in a field of 25 until he tipped his opponent off to his offensive and ran smack into the ball of fangs and fury that was superdeath's defense. I don't expect him to make that mistake here. His builder game is phenomenal.
The leader/civ: Rusten is Spi piloting a mysticism civ. Bet he gets religion. Two religions? Sure why not. I think Pro/Spi is great in Rusten's hands. Pro is the second best trait in the game. (Lurkers know which is best.) It will be good on this map. Rusten can make Spi work. Pro also has hilarious synergy with the Celtic Dun. Whoever Rusten hits in the swordsmen era is in for a world of pain.

Gavagai:

The player: Another one I don't know too much about, despite him having played a million games. He isn't afraid of aggression. I think sometimes to his detriment? If we look weak, he will attack us. His is a predatory nature.
The leader/civ: Zara will be good, I think. Org helps on watery maps. And Gavagai is really betting a lot on the watery nature of our game. The Eastindia Man is probably the best UU in the game (although Cho-ko-nus and Impis both have their uses). If he's anywhere near contention in the age of sail, he will be scary indeed.

Commodore:

The player: Divisive, shall we say? I've played on the same map but not really interacted with him. He has a reputation for being the big bad wolf. And he, like superdeath, is constantly planning how to attack his neighbors. Not a slur! It's a good trait for winning. He puts on a great show of being disengaged and just weaving a tale, which has caused some people to underestimate him? He does his micro. I'm a huge fan because of his reports. Let's see if squaring off against him changes my tune.
The leader/civ: Holy smokes, the man has the gods' own luck. He was forced to pick whatever civ Krill handed him in round three, and he landed Mali to go with his Protective leader. Beware, and remember that you too are mortal. I haven't been ranking players for chance to win, but in a vacuum I think this combo takes it. I'm green with jealousy. There are three combos we really don't want to start next to, and he's one of them. (The others are superdeath and BGN/Xenu.) Rereading this section, I realize I didn't actually explain why this combo is good. Well, he can plant anywhere he wants backed up by skirmishers. And mints are cool.

Donovan Zoi:

The player: I only know him from his PB38 thread, which I don't think is indicative of a normal game. He made a quick turn 0 misread, which in turn derailed his game a bit. Even with that, he still Holkan-rushed Dark Savant and drew first blood of that game. Going just by 38 I'd think he more of a novice, but I don't think that game is evidence of anything, so we'll have to learn more about DZ on the field.
The leader/civ: I love Hannibal here. I don't think he's the strongest, but this is Mr. Coastal himself on a Big&Small. Fin doesn't mind working coasts, and Charismatic is great for just whipping and whipping, which is what those fishing villages require. I assume Ottomans were picked for their starting techs. Jans are good. Hammams you probably want to avoid if possible.

BGN/Xenu:

The players: I haven't been talking about dedlurkers although they will certainly affect the listed player's style. (Boy, to be a fly on the wall for a Pindi/Commodore collab...) But I really think BGN and Xenu will play a succession game? Xenu keeps giving me reasons to root for him. BGN is an excellent micro-er and tactician and solid all around. If he makes it to the end game, he will be able to manage late stage empires. He will be opportunistic as required. Xenu has a reputation as a bloodthirsty crazy person, but maybe this is from years ago? All the stuff I've read recently is very sane. Player rep is no reason to not piss in someone's sandbox, but we should make sure we know the score before setting Xenu on a permanent war path. Hopefully BGN will keep him steady. Both of these players are very good. Enough said.
The leader/civ: This is the first truly terrifying combo. Exp/Pro is absurdly fast, and Immortals hard counter our unique unit. Persia has great starting techs. I really, really hope they don't go whole hog on a chariot rush, but with only early game traits perhaps they feel they need to? Of all the killers in the field, only this group is making me antsy.

The Other Tier

naufragar:

The player: So, I'm coming into this with a bit of a chip on my shoulder. I had a solid early to middle game in PB38 helped along by the best and most synergistic combo in that entire game. On top of that, not a sinlge of my four neighbors really challenged any of my plants. As soon as someone did, I folded like a house of cards, got dropped like a bad habit, was absolutely obliterated like a bug on a windshield, and so on. It's on me to prove, without a stupidly good combo, that my incompetence was only martial and not economic. The problem with my terrible tactics in 38 is that if other opponents have read the extensive documentation of my failures, they may think I'm the tastiest in this field. We'll have to prove them wrong.
The leader/civ: I've warmed to the combo. It's still worse that several (e.g. Gilgamesh would be a straight upgrade), but if it's behind, it's only a step or two behind. I had thought our UU was going to be solid, and it is, but wowee there are a lot of scary UUs. 2 chariots and Protective Skirmishers could all be real offensive pains in the ass. It feels less like bowmen are going to keep us absolutely secure and more like having a defensive UU is the bare minimum in this fast, aggressive field.

I'll probably do more general thoughts later, but for now: 1) Man, that's a lot of Creative civs. 2) Nobody picked Imp? Don't they know it's the best trait?

[Charriu]

Very interesting. No AGG and 4 people that have CRE. Good that we are one of them. Will you post your opinions about the players and their combos?

EDIT: Well that was good timing by me

[Charriu]

Just throwing in my two cents  about the other players:

superdeath:

The player: Superdeath likes to play civ4. Maybe even more than me! He started very green in PB38 but has since played in every pitboss hosted. I have only dipped into 39 and 40 occassionally (so I won't be spoiling anything for my dedlurkers who are playing him in 40!), but he seems to have improved with every game. He is hyper-aggressive, constantly thinking how he can shank his neighbor. He has a tendency to build a little extra military before other players and then opportunistically play havoc with their plans. Paradoxically, while he builds a bit more offense early to visit the neighbors, he seems to run real skimpy farmer's gambits at home. He doesn't seem like the kind of player to let early transgressions slide, so if we do want to capitalize on a potential farmer's gambit call, we'll have to make it count.
The leader/civ: I see the reasoning behind Isabella, I think. Exp is your early game trait, and Spi allows you to run economic civics on a crowded map without worrying about getting caught without slavery. Spi is not newb friendly, but superdeath is rapidly gaining veterancy ranks. Superdeath has a solid UU in Carthage's Numidian. He loves ancient era uniques and will absolutely use them. On top of that, he loves chariots (because why not? They are the gold standard for ancient era aggression.) It should hopefully take him a bit to get to Numids with his starting techs, and our bowman do alright against them (unlike some other UUs we will mention). Big&Small has long coast lines. Cothons will be stellar.

In the past as in this PB he mentioned that he does not like water maps. This could be an advantage for us. On the other hand his civ/traits have a few things for water, so maybe he will learn the ins and outs of water maps in this game.

PB39 spoiler

I noticed that he left his cities on the northern island between me and him ungarrisoned for quite a while.

Other then that he will mostly likely go for early Horseback Riding like you mentioned. Be prepared for that. Him being the other SPI player in this game and not CRE, there's also a tiny chance that he may go for an religion.

Mr. Cairo:

The player: I don't really know Cairo too well. We neighbored each other in '38, but that was a very quiet border. He has won a PB here, I think? In 38 he had no qualms snacking on Donovan Zoi. I don't really know much about him, sorry.
The leader/civ: TBS has recently shown off the power of Pericles, but Phi is a tricky thing to use. Like superdeath, Cairo has an early game trait paired with a later. In a field with a lot of early traits, perhaps this gives him the gas to overcome others. I could see some cute plays with great scientists to blow his tech rate sky high on what will likely be a constrained (by both land and sparse food) map. The Ziggurat helps this. The vulture? Well, prepare for axe rushes and you've prepared for vultures. Don't, and the result's the same.

The Ziggurat also needs Priesthood and with 4 other CRE leaders he may go for an religion.

Gavagai:

The player: Another one I don't know too much about, despite him having played a million games. He isn't afraid of aggression. I think sometimes to his detriment? If we look weak, he will attack us. His is a predatory nature.
The leader/civ: Zara will be good, I think. Org helps on watery maps. And Gavagai is really betting a lot on the watery nature of our game. The Eastindia Man is probably the best UU in the game (although Cho-ko-nus and Impis both have their uses). If he's anywhere near contention in the age of sail, he will be scary indeed.

Just looking at his leader/civ I think his biggest weakness will be his early game. Like you said he's beting on water, without it this leader/civ is a lot weaker.

Commodore:

The player: Divisive, shall we say? I've played on the same map but not really interacted with him. He has a reputation for being the big bad wolf. And he, like superdeath, is constantly planning how to attack his neighbors. Not a slur! It's a good trait for winning. He puts on a great show of being disengaged and just weaving a tale, which has caused some people to underestimate him? He does his micro. I'm a huge fan because of his reports. Let's see if squaring off against him changes my tune.
The leader/civ: Holy smokes, the man has the gods' own luck. He was forced to pick whatever civ Krill handed him in round three, and he landed Mali to go with his Protective leader. Beware, and remember that you too are mortal. I haven't been ranking players for chance to win, but in a vacuum I think this combo takes it. I'm green with jealousy. There are three combos we really don't want to start next to, and he's one of them. (The others are superdeath and BGN/Xenu.) Rereading this section, I realize I didn't actually explain why this combo is good. Well, he can plant anywhere he wants backed up by skirmishers. And mints are cool.

Agree, this is the best leader/civ combo in this game and makes him more or less untouchable in the beginning. Another thing you should know. His encounter with Superdeath in PB38 wasn't that pleasant. If these two will border each other there may be a chance that Commodore will take revenge on Superdeath.

Donovan Zoi:

The player: I only know him from his PB38 thread, which I don't think is indicative of a normal game. He made a quick turn 0 misread, which in turn derailed his game a bit. Even with that, he still Holkan-rushed Dark Savant and drew first blood of that game. Going just by 38 I'd think he more of a novice, but I don't think that game is evidence of anything, so we'll have to learn more about DZ on the field.
The leader/civ: I love Hannibal here. I don't think he's the strongest, but this is Mr. Coastal himself on a Big&Small. Fin doesn't mind working coasts, and Charismatic is great for just whipping and whipping, which is what those fishing villages require. I assume Ottomans were picked for their starting techs. Jans are good. Hammams you probably want to avoid if possible.

But when it comes to Hammam: Together with CHA he is more independent of any happiness resources. Oh and it will be interesting to see his opening afterwards as you both have the same techs.

BGN/Xenu:

The players: I haven't been talking about dedlurkers although they will certainly affect the listed player's style. (Boy, to be a fly on the wall for a Pindi/Commodore collab...) But I really think BGN and Xenu will play a succession game? Xenu keeps giving me reasons to root for him. BGN is an excellent micro-er and tactician and solid all around. If he makes it to the end game, he will be able to manage late stage empires. He will be opportunistic as required. Xenu has a reputation as a bloodthirsty crazy person, but maybe this is from years ago? All the stuff I've read recently is very sane. Player rep is no reason to not piss in someone's sandbox, but we should make sure we know the score before setting Xenu on a permanent war path. Hopefully BGN will keep him steady. Both of these players are very good. Enough said.
The leader/civ: This is the first truly terrifying combo. Exp/Pro is absurdly fast, and Immortals hard counter our unique unit. Persia has great starting techs. I really, really hope they don't go whole hog on a chariot rush, but with only early game traits perhaps they feel they need to? Of all the killers in the field, only this group is making me antsy.

To add a small detail their UB synergizes with EXP. But if they truly play a succession game it could be to our advantage.

naufragar:

The player: So, I'm coming into this with a bit of a chip on my shoulder. I had a solid early to middle game in PB38 helped along by the best and most synergistic combo in that entire game. On top of that, not a sinlge of my four neighbors really challenged any of my plants. As soon as someone did, I folded like a house of cards, got dropped like a bad habit, was absolutely obliterated like a bug on a windshield, and so on. It's on me to prove, without a stupidly good combo, that my incompetence was only martial and not economic. The problem with my terrible tactics in 38 is that if other opponents have read the extensive documentation of my failures, they may think I'm the tastiest in this field. We'll have to prove them wrong.
The leader/civ: I've warmed to the combo. It's still worse that several (e.g. Gilgamesh would be a straight upgrade), but if it's behind, it's only a step or two behind. I had thought our UU was going to be solid, and it is, but wowee there are a lot of scary UUs. 2 chariots and Protective Skirmishers could all be real offensive pains in the ass. It feels less like bowmen are going to keep us absolutely secure and more like having a defensive UU is the bare minimum in this fast, aggressive field.

I'll probably do more general thoughts later, but for now: 1) Man, that's a lot of Creative civs. 2) Nobody picked Imp? Don't they know it's the best trait?

Not only Imp, Agg wasn't picked either. And Ind, but nobody talks about that guy. Other then that you will see that your second game will be a lot better then your first.

[naufragar]

And we're off! Password is reprise.

Settings in spoilers. Looks right to me. Plus we have our correct techs.

Settled first to see if the vision would change our scout path. It didn't. And here is our known world:




I realized frantically upon logging in that I didn't have a name scheme, so I quickly picked another old video game and will draw my list from locations there. Not as inspired as my '38 choice.  

[Charriu]

Uh, so far the south looks uninteresting. How will you move your scout?

[naufragar]

Yeah, I'd scout differently but we should duplicate our moves after the reload. Next turn I'll move the scout 1S 1SE. If there's anything interesting down there, he'll then go 1SE then to wherever gets best vision. Otherwise 2NE. We need to get eyes on the area around our food, especially northwest of the rice, ASAP.

[Charriu]

After 1S 1SE I would advise to go 1NE as there is another flatland tile there and you can move around your capital to the north