Ranamar and Lewwyn, ministers for Bismarck of Mali

[Lewwyn]

Bully yuris some more? Elaborate?

Yuris doesn't want to pay his protection money and his NAP with us is coming up soon.

[SevenSpirits]

Played t106.

I started three missionaries as we had none in production. Missionaries are the most important thing to build right now, I think.

I was sad to find that Numenor had been whipped.

As our only island city, it's providing a ton of valuable internal trade routes. And once we get it above 10 pop, those trade routes will ALL be worth more. Plus, the mint doesn't do anything right now. And we would have gotten a big discount on it if we'd waited for a missionary to spread Confucianism first.

Here's Barad-dur.

I've been borrowing cottages back from Osgiliath so it can grow faster. BD is a good example of how powerful Printing Press and Replaceable Parts are for us.

Speaking of which, I used the Merchant in GES's city and collected our 871 or whatever gold. We could have gotten another 133 or so to split with someone, but that would take a few turns more of merchant shuffling, further delaying Printing Press and RP. Plus we have to trust someone, which while a small risk is still additional risk. And unfortunately there's no time left to negotiate for a fair price (the 50% that Gold asked for is not reasonable).

This allowed us to finish Printing Press this turn.

Here's a city which just came out of revolt. And all our four workers were in the south, building two PLAINS non-river cottages! What a travesty.



For the record we should not be building any more cottages this game. They have too long of a payoff horizon. And we certainly shouldn't be improving plains tiles which are the last thing we want to work, over resources!

I sent two workers from Moria to start the Pasture. One of them can finish it next turn and I think there are now enough workers in range to also finish the winery next turn. Which will be good because...



Moria's now out of revolt as of the end of the turn, and its citizens are not happy about it. We should switch to a Monastery and whip it immediately for 2 pop. I expect this to net us 2-3 happiness here. Hooking the wines will add +1, and a spice-dye trade with Commodore will add yet another (assuming he accepts). This should give us enough happiness that we don't starve. And in two more turns the borders will pop, giving the fish, and we won't have to worry anymore.

Important, though: We need to reassign the tiles! It's working a bunch of shit right now to make us look worse in demographics. So steal tiles from neighboring cities and turn the governor on. (And turn it off first, here, as it is on - we just have a million forced citizens.) Here and also in Dol Amroth, which also came out of revolt.

Workers on our home continent are putting up windmills everwhere in anticipation of them becoming really good with RP. I've prioritized non-river tiles, as this will give them their first commerce which is relevant when we start our next golden age once the french cities stop revolting.

Here are demographics:


Worthy of note:


And also:


GES' GNP is unsurprisingly insane.

I will post diplo stuff soon.

[NobleHelium]

MNG is down to one city?

[Ranamar]

Here's a city which just came out of revolt. And all our four workers were in the south, building two PLAINS non-river cottages! What a travesty.

That's called "I moved the workers before noticing the wines and didn't feel like reloading."

[SevenSpirits]

MNG is down to one city?

Yes. It's well-defended, however: 3 spears, an axe, a general axe, a mace, and three warriors. (He has no metal anymore so I guess he's building those.)

We are certainly healing up before attacking it, if we do at all.

[SevenSpirits]

Diplo with Yuris, continued from here:

Hi Seven,

Yeah, you never know how things turn out! We actually were trying hard
to conceal our Taj plans, because we thought YOU could be going for it
Too bad indeed

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the campaign. I certainly
understand the difficulties coordinating the war effort We will
just continue our military build-up (which is useful in any case), and
see if we can join in once we have an attack force worth mentioning.
Meanwhile, we would very much appreciate any information you can share
throughout the war

What you're saying about the NAP is very true. As I mentioned, we are
quite close to Gunpowder and Janissaries now, so if you attack us when
the NAP expires, we will probably be able to defend. However, we don't
want to check We suspected that you were going for early Astronomy,
which we indeed plan to delay for as long as possible, so your
mobility (with the added circumnavigation bonus) is a concern. We
would really prefer to avoid hostilities and find a better use for our
growing military

If you agree to a NAP extension, we will be willing to continue
providing you with ivory for the duration of the NAP. Is it acceptable
for you? If it's not, please let me know what you would like to get in
exchange for a NAP extension

Cheers
Yuri

Hey,

I've been thinking about the NAP but I'm not sure what would be a good trade, yet. Our happy cap is high at the moment so the ivory isn't very meaningful or important. Maybe a good chunk of gold?

If we do continue our nap, we'd also be willing to sell you some galleons if you're interested.

Seven

Hey Seven,

Sorry for delay in replying. I'm afraid our diplo can be somewhat
slower while I'm on holiday

I don't have a problem parting with some gold for a NAP extension. How
much do you want though? We need to be sure we can afford it before
agreeing

Galleons would be very helpful too, especially if we decide to join in
the war against MNG. We would definitely be interested in this, but
first let's decide if the NAP extension is to go ahead, at least in
principle

Also, I'd like to return to the matter of your war plans, if you don't
mind. Should we join the war, Lyons would be the most obvious city we
would want to make part of our empire; we would also like the city to
its north. Do you plan to attack them in the near future, and if not,
can you leave them for us?

Cheers
Yuri

Hm, maybe 600g? How long of a NAP do you want?

About the war plans: I still don't know, and maybe never will. Our advantage is mobility so we're pretty much just looking for opportunities to capture under-defended cities. We can be a bit more laissez-faire about Lyons though, if you like.

When the ivory deal runs out, we'd be willing to trade a whale for it, by the way.

Seven

Hi guys, could you get back to us on this? What do you want?

Big changes this turn btw, we took a few cities (you'll see, I can't remember the names at the moment). You'd better hurry if you want the one close to you. MNG is not defending very much.

I'm out for the weekend but may still be on email.

Seven

Hey Seven,

Sorry for the huge delay, we had to talk this over with Maestro for
quite a long time, simply because 600g is a huge pile of money!

We actually think we're going to be able to defend against any attack
after our NAP expires. We will get Gunpowder this turn, and will have
the time to build Janissaries for defence. Therefore, paying 600g for
just a NAP is simply not possible

However, not having to use those Janissaries for defence is important,
so we would still like to sign a NAP. We also see a lot of value in
buying Galleons from you. With them, after the war against France is
over, we could start talking about neutralising the biggest threat, if
you would be interested of course. With this in mind, we're willing to
pay for a NAP extension, but we don't think 600g is a fair price

We can offer 150g for extending the NAP by 30 turns, up to and
including T141, if it works for you

On to the matter of Galleons, how soon can you send them to us? I
think if we send a stack to MNG's territory by land, he will prepare
defences, so we would quite like to use Galleons to bring it in. How
soon could you send 2 Galleons to us? How much do you want for them,
does 50g for a Galleon sounds fair? We would like to buy 5 Galleons
total, 2 of them asap, if such a deal is possible

So, here is the deal we would like to sign

* We extend the NAP by 30 turns, up to and including T141
* We pay you 150g as a sign of goodwill and friendship
* You sell us 5 Galleons, at the price of 50g per Galleon, 250g total.
We would like to get 2 of them asap, and 3 more within the next 20
turns. If you could bring them near our city of Maximum (inner sea) or
Echo of Moscow (outer sea), it would be perfect
* You refrain from taking French city of Lyons, unless it
significantly impedes your war progress. You notify us if you decide
to attack it

Please let me know what you think

On another matter, I wanted to tell about the special circumstances
which caused us to hold the turn a few days ago. We received a trade
offer, which we found very unusual and strange, and had to ask for
more info before we could decide whether to accept it. As it turned
out, it was made due to a misclick, so it was rejected, and there were
no consequences

My apologies once again for not replying for so long, and
congratulations on great progress in your war!

Cheers
Yuri

Hey, writing briefly from phone.

50g per galleon is far too low.

Galleons are 53h. 1h is worth 2-3g. (You are way overestimating the value of gold.) So minimum 100-160g each. We'd possibly take a deal for 125 per, though also maybe not, with someone who also has astro. That's not even a good trade for us in a vacuum, it's breakeven. Not worth it.

But also, you lack astro so they are worth more than that. Further, astro is a terrible tech for you. So they are worth still more. Minimum 200g I'd say. (Maybe paying in hammers would be easier. But I guess we're not needing troops too much at the moment.)

Galleons are borderline broken on this map.

Still happy to negotiate NAP if you want but that's not good enough for ships.

Gotta go.

Seven

Hey Seven,

I see your point, even though 200g is quite expensive. I'm having hard
time trying to convince Maestro that we need those Galleons. Could you
let me know if you can consider dropping the price to 170g, and if you
can consider extending the NAP for free?

I don't want to commit to anything just yet, because I didn't manage
to catch Maestro for a chat today, but knowing how you feel about
these concessions would help a lot

Cheers
Yuri

Let's ignore the galleons for the moment because you're not getting any if we're attacking you.

I'm not sure you realize how much trouble you're in if we don't renew the NAP. We just (basically) eliminated a player, and we have a high military and the only navy in the game. For 300g I'll extend it 30t. Another 150g and we'll back off on Lyons for 10t, letting you presumably take it.

I'm sorry about my teammates taking the last two turns without any diplo, such that there's not much time left to decide. But I guess here we are.

Seven

Hi Seven,

This deal has been a dominating subject in our discussion with Maestro
for the last few days. I have to say we're not convinced our position
is as bad as you're saying

I guess there's only one way to find out, and if you're set on
attacking us if we don't extend the NAP, then so be it. However, I can
promise that we will prepare adequate defences, and you won't be able
to steamroll over us

The only player who will ultimately benefit from your attack on us is
GES. Did you notice his GNP in the last few turns, when he turned on
research? The longer he is left in peace, the lower the chance to stop
him will be

So, there are two options. We can put our differences aside, stay on
friendly terms, and work together to slow GES down. Or we can engage
in a prolonged war, which you might eventually win, but whether it
will allow you to win the game is doubtful

I have to say that asking for such a significant amount of money for
NAP extension didn't look friendly. If we decide to work together, we
would be happy to let it go. However, I firmly believe that signing a
NAP and working together to bring GES down will benefit both our teams
(maybe it will even be more beneficial to you, because you're clearly
the next contender for the victory). Therefore, extension of the NAP
will have to involve no payment or other concessions from our team

Cheers
Yuri

PS Ranamar, you're up in the SotS SG, in case you missed it

Two possibilities:
1) He is being naive and underestimates how much damage he can take from galleons.
2) He is being wise and realizes we're in a great position and want the NAP.

Here's the thing (I'm sure Lewwyn would like a chance to continue warring, but...): we really do want a NAP with him, because we have the most land now. We just want to build up our lead for a while, and hope that's enough to overcome GES' high tech rate. Furthermore we want the other players (Commodore/Yuris) to be friendly with us and antagonistic towards GES. A NAP with us is practically necessary for them to be hostile to the other top power.

So, we will want to take the NAP. Under one condition I'd say: Open Borders. That's important given the great lighthouse (and hell, free market too). I'm going to try to catch him on chat.

[Ranamar]

Two possibilities:
1) He is being naive and underestimates how much damage he can take from galleons.
2) He is being wise and realizes we're in a great position and want the NAP.

I'm not sure the two are mutually exclusive. Until you've seen them in action, it's hard to fathom just how powerful having transport ships that can go almost as fast on water as a 2-move unit (like knights, admittedly) can go on roads. It's really, really terrifying, and I'd say it'll only get more so (although not much more so) if we can add in a naval bombardment unit like Frigates. You'd think people would realize this from having played with modern era transports, but, well, it certainly blindsided me, and we're not that close to the modern era here.

[SevenSpirits]

Since we have alphabet now I checked what techs everyone has. I believe this is correct (and I'm ignoring MNG who is effectively out):

Vs everyone
+ Compass, Optics, Astronomy, Economics
- Priesthood, Code of Laws

and then also...

Vs Commodore
- Music

Vs GES
+ Printing Press, Feudalism, Guilds, Banking, Construction, Engineering, Gunpowder, Horseback Riding, Archery, Aesthetics, Literature
- Philosophy, Liberalism, Nationalism, Theology, Divine Right

Vs Yuris
+ Alphabet, Machinery, Printing Press, Guilds, Banking, Horseback Riding, Archery, Aesthetics, Literature
- Philosophy, Nationalism, Theology

Of course keep in mind that GES has 3000 gold saved up. And this snapshot was at the end of our turn. We just got Printing Press, and GES is surely about to on his own turn.

[SevenSpirits]

Diplo with Commodore - I waited until I caught him on chat. Rather, he ended up catching me!

But first, This conversation continued:

Seven,

Certainly, we'll see in a bit. Enjoy your uncle's wedding.

-Commodore

I've got a bit of internet tonight. I don't want to negotiate or promise anything now (can't see the save... and we still don't know if we lost cities to MNG this turn. But I can respond to a couple questions:

> This seem like a fair trade?

Fair trade? Definitely not. A city is worth much more than such a small amount of gold. (How much, exactly?) That in itself doesn't rule the swap out, but, like I said, not going into that right now.

> GES NAP?

I'm not going to answer directly as that's confidential (and I'm not going to try to hint at things). But here is some information I feel fine giving.

* It looks like GES is 8 turns from Rifling in that he has tons of gold and 8-9 techs left to reach Rifling.
* I have no idea how long it generally takes people to get from Rifling to Assembly Line.
* The reason I signed the NAP with him was to be safe from his easy access to muskets while we pummeled someone with knights and then integrated their land. Of course, I didn't know how long that would take. (Still don't for the second part.)
* Grenadiers are kind of dumb defensively and maybe not strong enough amphibiously. I think Rifles + drafting + ideally Cannon would be what I'd go for, even against other Rifles. Unless you have a specific invasion plan with grens like we did with knights. But I mean I'd totally get chemistry, for the option. And Steel. And frigates.

Btw you don't need assistance to screw someone on this map. Just a few Galleons and units.

Seven

Here is our full chat from just now:

12:11 PM Commodore: Salut, Seven
How's the war going? Am I about to start sending the save to you guys?
12:13 PM me: hi Comm! glad to catch you on chat
12:14 PM it's going pretty well, we really need to heal up now though
he still has the one city in the NE defended by like 10 units
Commodore: Just Lyons to go?
me: yep
if we can't take it out soon, I bet yuris will
12:15 PM Commodore: Ah, yes, Jans incoming there.
me: yeah, we've already seen one, I'm sure he's got more
Commodore: Sell those guys some galleons, by the way.
It's for a great cause.
me: hm
I want to
12:16 PM I think they're really undervaluing them though
yuris is a really tough negotiator
Commodore: Well, they've screwed themselves a little, which is why I hate the Colossus.
me: heh
12:17 PM have oyu been talking with them?
Commodore: A bit with Maestro
I'll cheerfully render moral support in any attempts to slow down the Luddite train.
12:18 PM Or "the artist formerly known as GES"
me: heh
yeah
so I want to talk about war spoils
12:19 PM Commodore: Oh, an aside, took Chartres last turn with no casualties, but I didn't deserve too, he had quite a few units piled there.
12:20 PM me: nice!
Commodore: Flanking=fast cats/
me: yup
I do want to say that I don't think we owe you anything - the war went fine pretty much on our own, and in fact your buildup and nap cooldown probably caused us to face stronger defenses. and we volunteered to you the info of when we would attack, and you did the same (though were then a bit wrong)
12:21 PM and, while you kind of lost the opportunity to take cities due to turn order, it's also kind of just because you were late to the war
that said, I hope I can be somewhat generous at least
12:22 PM because I feel like you've been a good ally
and I want to keep it that way too
about your proposal for gold for a city, how much gold would that have been for the three upgrades?
Commodore: 390 I believe.
12:23 PM Could be 360, but I'm not sure.
me: ok
so I think the city is worth much more (not sure on the exact figure though) - were you thinking of that as a fair deal?
12:24 PM Commodore: Not a purely fair deal considered in isolation.
I figured it was also accounting for the intangibles of scouting beforehand and the cultural issues.
12:25 PM me: cultural issues?
Commodore: Its second ring will be pressured by both Parthian and Chartres.
12:26 PM Within a third-ring pop of the city I'll be settling on the Parthian Peninsula as well, although that's less an issue.
me: yeah, true
12:28 PM Commodore: There is one other site I can see a disagreement on, 3NW of Chartres and 5W of Tours.
12:29 PM Again, like you, I want to work with you guys as allies, please don't take any of this as me being problematic.
me: I don't think culture is a big deal if we control it. there's only a single village S of it that you might steal that would really matter, and I don't mind that
if you control it, I think half the tiles will be unworkable due to Paris' ridiculous culture
12:30 PM I'd rather keep the city and give you some resources, if that sounds all right
i don't remember which ones are chartres and tours
can you remind me?
Commodore: That sounds okay, if I can take the western spot.
12:31 PM Tours is now...Dol Amroth I think?
me: oh I think I know where you mean. er, we settled that this turn ^^
hm
Commodore: And Chartres is now Cimmera, where I just took his southern garrison.
Ack.
12:32 PM Will that annul the gems trade, first of all?
me: hm?
Commodore: It's a source of silk.
me: oh the silk
no
12:33 PM we can keep giving you gems, for sure
12:34 PM howa re you doing in happiness btw?
Commodore: Erk, secondly, those hills are going to be big for mines.
I'm doing okay.
me: we settled on the plains tile N of the river
I doubt we'll steal a single tile from you
Commodore: Oh! That's much better.
me:
Commodore: Makes sense for your dotmap.
12:35 PM I'll be fighting for the windmill I suppose, but that's about it.
me: yeah
12:36 PM we can try to keep culture pretty low in Dol Amroth too, make sure you win teh second-ring battle
also: I sent you stone this turn
we have a monopoly on it now, both sources, you can have one
Commodore: Well, if I can still get gems/spices, that I can live with I reckon
12:37 PM Okay, Oxford isn't getting start for another few turns just fyi.
me: also proposed the spice dye trade since you'll get your second dye up next turn
sure, np
I mean we're not doing anything else with it
also it occurs to me that we can send you whales until you have your own, if you like
12:38 PM Commodore: It's weird, just Cimmera/Corinthea double the number of workable plains and grass hills I have.
Ah, that'd be handy, thankye much
me: wow!
Commodore: Yeah, it hurts.
12:39 PM me: have you considered running up to communism? workshops/watermills with that boost are really really good and you can probably beat GES to the spy
12:40 PM Commodore: Yeah, I'm thinking about beating for the spy.
me: not to mention kremlin
Commodore: Although looking over it all, straight-up bee-lining Assembly Line makes sense too.
Kremlin would be huge.
12:41 PM It's weird, but this game is lasting long enough for Org factories to start making sense.
me: yeah, good point!
Commodore: That sure isn't a bonus I was considering beforehand.
me: haha
no kidding
wish we were netherlands btw
12:42 PM Commodore: Yeah, EI's would be nice.
Although I bet Yuri would pay in blood to be Portugal.
me: hehe
12:43 PM huh yeah, portugal + colossus is agood combo
Commodore: I think I'm in a decent place, but it's going to be hard to cut the goodies out front GES
me: they dont' even need galleons really
Commodore: Yep, they can just go Carracks -> Transports.
12:44 PM Although they are also looking at knights and landsknechts running around and happy about those Jans, I'm sure.
me: yeah
so oh, speaking of GES
you do have an advantage, namely more cities than him
12:45 PM Commodore: Really?
me: what's going on with those islands in the southern middle sea?
Commodore: We've split them
I'll be settling mine in 2 turns
I'm sure your entire economy is quivering in anticipation.
12:46 PM me: not at the moment but you will
Commodore: I could have bid for the eastern one too, but it'd be getting pressured on three sides.
me: yeah
tough
Commodore: You only have one IC route now, right? This will double it.
me: those islands are really good for internal trade routes
12:47 PM because it means every single city that doesn't have enough external routes gets at least one 2c internal one
more if you grow the island city
Commodore: Yeah, I'll be growing it fast.
me: unfortunately your island city won't be as good as having another of our own
Commodore: Two fish, versus a clam and deer for GES.
me: it'll only boost one city, one trade routes
not bad
Commodore: Ah, yeah, foreign limit.
12:48 PM me: we also have a temporary advantage over GES because he spent so much time gathering gold
he's down a ton of techs
Commodore: I honestly think I'm okay for # cities now, if Luddite/GES can continue to be contained.
His GNP will be bumping even more next turn though
12:49 PM Printing Press is about to come in.
me: the way to take advantage of that is probably to take the free GP techs, communism and physics, first
I've been thinking about this
Commodore: Physics would be nice for airships too.
me: I don't think I can do that
because scientific method obsoletes half our capital :D
Commodore: Ach
12:50 PM Only a 40% decrease here.
I have been piling in the monasteries.
me: oh wow, nice
12:51 PM Commodore: Yeah, it's my only multi-religious city now though.
me: yeah, we have all three wonders that it obsoletes, as well as AP-boosted monasteries everwhere
Commodore: Except for the Jewish holy city.
me: it's hilariously painful for us
Commodore: Good news is, it's harder for GES.
12:52 PM me: why?
Commodore: His monasteries are what, 2g, 1h, 2 beakers?
me: good point
2h actually
definitely strong
Commodore: Although so are is cheap temples...
12:53 PM me: yes
12:54 PM Commodore: Kind of neat to see a priest economy run well.
Just wish it was, y'know, not here.
me: yeah :/
I agree
Commodore: Note of warning, I have a 3pm meeting in five minutes.
me: it's too bad he and yuris didn't split those wonders
ok
12:55 PM Commodore: Yuris was so close.
AP and Taj both.
me: yeah
sad
Commodore: Boy that would have made for a different game.
me: yes
before you go, I do want to bring up - do you want a formal NAP?
12:56 PM Commodore: Actually, I was going to ask myself.
me: cool
Commodore: I hate the "definite date" ones.
They basically mean "renew or I consider this war"
me: yeah
Commodore: But I'd love a 5-turn rolling NAP.
12:57 PM me: that works for me. a longer roll would work too (I'd prefer 10t I think)
Commodore: It's just 10t is where I'm at with GES, it's crimping a little.
12:58 PM Not that I plan on anything towards you guys, just 10 turns is a little long.
me: hm, yeah. well 10t is on the long side for a quick speed game, but I like you, you know?
Commodore: Split the difference and call it 7 turns?
12:59 PM That's a 10t normal speed
me: sure, that's fine
Commodore: Excellent.
me: consider it signed
Commodore: Awesome, glad to be working with you.
Now, mentioning work, it's meeting time.
Until later, cheers.
me: all right, catch you later!

Key points (read, since these are agreements we need to abide by):

* We have agreed to a 7t-cooldown rolling NAP.
* We will continue to owe him Gems even though we get our own source of Silk. (We currently have a gems/silk trade.)
* We will additionally send him Whales until he has hooked his own. This needs to be done in-game.
* Furthermore our gift of stone to him will continue, since we have two of them.
* We will be trading Spice for Dye as planned.
* Dol Amroth will not attempt to best Cimmera's second-ring culture. (And in fact will attempt to not do so.) Dol Amroth is the city we won with the fork; Cimmera is the isolated French city SW of it that Commodore just captured. We should switch from a Library to a Harbor there. (Though let's still get Confucianism there ASAP.)

Notably, we have not given up any of our cities! Yay. And we are at peace, in fact with good relations, and have Open Borders. There is no real cost to us in these deals.

None of the resource gifts to him have agreed-upon durations. Our Open Borders are similarly based on mutual benefit and goodwill.

I also talked with him about catching GES. One thing I suggested to him was to go for the free great people at Communism and Physics, something that we cannot really do ourselves because Scientific Method obsoletes half our stuff.

[SevenSpirits]

Also, for fun, here's a chat I had last night with MNG:

7:05 PM me: hey
8 minutes
7:14 PM Hatshepsut: hi. heading out the door, but hi
7:19 PM me: hey! maybe I missed you. but I'm curious to know at some point whether you realized we could capture your three empty cities
7:20 PM Hatshepsut: no, i honestly didn't - i figured i had one turn of safe pillaging before they needed to get back home to harass your units more
many lessons to be learned from this game
me: ah yeah, oh well
hey man, sorry again for attacking you
7:21 PM Hatshepsut: no problem. clearly based on the results it was the right move
me: yeah