Ballin' would be the technical term. Especially for a tight map like this, you guys blew the picking phase out of the park here. Got any more abuse planned for it?
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[spoilers] Commodore and Dtay are Sitting Bull of Inca, somehow.
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(June 7th, 2015, 16:52)The Black Sword Wrote: Ballin' would be the technical term. Especially for a tight map like this, you guys blew the picking phase out of the park here. Got any more abuse planned for it?Nah, we were going to rest on our laurels.  Seriously, either bulbing Philosophy and Education for a Lib run, or else bulb Gunpowder and Chemistry for a direct Steel push.
If only you and me and dead people know hex, then only deaf people know hex.
I write RPG adventures, and blog about it, check it out.  (June 8th, 2015, 07:37)Commodore Wrote: Nah, we were going to rest on our laurels. When do you have to commit one way or the other? I imagine you'd like to see how the war goes to know how badly you want cannons. But it would be silly to wait until all your neighbors have cavalry to pick up Steel.
EitB 25 - Perpentach
Occasional mapmaker (June 6th, 2015, 19:24)Commodore Wrote: In other news, RtR Phi with the 150% GPP rate is ballin'. Discuss. More evidence to reinforce the viewpoint that PHI is a full snowball trait. If you don't get a lead it's close to junk, if you do get a lead it's possibly god tier. The extra 50% gpp generation helps to drive a turn advantage and opens up a window to break other people with bulbed techs and the university production bonus helps to cement that lead in the Ren era with the quicker Oxford. In other words, main power for PHI comes from a one trick pony strategy.
I was going to counter by commenting how 2 of the top 3 in PB18 were Phi, but I guess Gandhi is kind of his own separate category, isn't he?
If only you and me and dead people know hex, then only deaf people know hex.
I write RPG adventures, and blog about it, check it out.
Gandhi is a separate beast, yes. Perhaps unique in playstyle compared to all other leaders. I'd also state that there are arguments and counter arguments for why traits were good, bad and awful in PB18. That's down to how they were used in various situations.
Quote:More evidence to reinforce the viewpoint that PHI is a full snowball trait. If you don't get a lead it's close to junk, if you do get a lead it's possibly god tier. How so? My own PB18 experience directly contradicts this, where I've been behind most of the game but Phi has definitely pulled its weight. I don't really see how the interaction with Spiritual counteracts that. The extra resources from Phi can snowball, just as those from any other trait can, but it doesn't matter if you're behind or ahead for that. Well, the known tech bonus makes bulbs from behind weaker in RtR but there's so many other uses for GP (and hence Phi) that you still have plenty of options. It is not an early game trait, so some civs can be killed off before it pulls much weight, but that's the same with Fin or Org. (June 9th, 2015, 10:07)Krill Wrote:(June 6th, 2015, 19:24)Commodore Wrote: In other news, RtR Phi with the 150% GPP rate is ballin'. Discuss. This is a good explanation IMO. PHI is pretty all or nothing. PHI can set you up for a sprint to a critical tech (Guilds) and then give you the ability to exploit the tech by having easy access to subsequent GP for an early GA (build more knights). Or it can provide a super early academy (you did save gold forever before throwing down that academy, right?). With the former play you get to conquer someone sooner and probably more cheaply than you otherwise could have done. With the latter you will probably be a tech leader and eventually get to wreck someone's face with superior units. PHI allows this by investing less food into your early GP pool, helping the expansion snowball stay on course because the investment required for the GP is minimal. The only drawback is that if you are PHI you may be losing out on not having an actively helpful expansion trait (EXP/PRO/IMP/CRE to a lesser extent) so you are less likely to get the full benefit of PHI without either an expansion trait to help you get started or without a tight expansion plan (at full cost) and compromised neighbors to exploit once your civ has picked up some steam. I think that traits are a partial explanation for PB18 but that geopolitics and who neighbored whom in that game have been far more decisive in the way things have turned out. (June 9th, 2015, 11:05)The Black Sword Wrote:Quote:More evidence to reinforce the viewpoint that PHI is a full snowball trait. If you don't get a lead it's close to junk, if you do get a lead it's possibly god tier. My guess is that first-to bonuses are much more important for PHI. If you aren't first to get there, in many cases the bulb isn't worth it. (June 9th, 2015, 11:05)The Black Sword Wrote:Quote:More evidence to reinforce the viewpoint that PHI is a full snowball trait. If you don't get a lead it's close to junk, if you do get a lead it's possibly god tier. I think it's fair to say that player skill variation is part of this as well: if people play badly or make mistakes, than any player can take advantage of that regardless of what traits and civ people have. So when you evaluate a position from a game such as PB18, where there are definitely local and global contexts for each position, it's possible to be "behind" in the global context but not in a local one because of how opponents have played. To use PB18 as an example, dtay built a tech lead that at one point approached 20K beakers (I think when he reached Rifling) but that was the global context. Locally, (and I'm trying to remember here because it was a long time ago and I have far from complete information) I'm not sure I could agree that you had a deficit in resources compared to your neighbours considering you ate two of them. I do recall you getting a couple of GP out that enabled you to eat Dazed though. I can't argue how much of that was due to PHI or SPI or whatever else because I just don't know enough. In that local context PHI helped to snowball the local lead into local hegemony. I'd have to disagree quite vehemently with the idea that all traits snowball the same. PHI specifically gives a bonus that can be used in 4 different ways: bulbing, golden ages, settling and the unique ability each GP has (Academy/gold bomb/culture bomb etc). The tactical usages of each allow PHI to snowball differently that, say, SPI or ORG with the passive, slow accrual of advantages. The small per turn advantages can't be turned into an immediate opportunity to take and hold land at any stage of hte game. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at about the bulbs from behind being weaker, unless you are talking about the increased tech costs meaning that each techs advantages are inherently worth less due to said cost, thus making bulbs worth less? I'd also argue that the KTB effect and tech costs aren't large enough to affect the advantage or disadvantage from bulbing, even compared to base BtS. Tech costs don't increase until the renaissance era. KTB is only 4% in the Medieval: for comparison that's about the same as in a 7-8 player game of base BtS so excluding the marque games with player deaths there aren't even many changes in the values. And perhaps most importantly of all, the KTB doesn't exist until the bulb is completed. In other words, until the window is created, the KTB doesn't exist to help close it and that's the point of why PHI is still potentially god tier. If you are in the lead, all you want is that window of opportunity to snowball by attacking 1 player. Yes, others will benefit from the KTB in whatever version of BtS you are playing, but that doesn't lessen the benefits of opening up that window. Blindly bulbing to build a tech lead is counter productive, but not the application to prepare an invasion. I agree that PHI is not an early game trait, just as FIN and ORG aren't. |
