[SPOILERS] Tatan, CFCJester and Nakor try their hand at Mansu of India...

[Nakor]

So... They're going to disconnect our Iron.
Construction and HBR are our next techs.

Jester, what is the master plan?

[CFCJesterFool]

We can't hold on to IW so will lose iron but we do have archers (thank the civ gods for research overflow). We need to withdraw the axe from IW and whip IW (get rid of pop) We move the chariot from GA to CC (the more important city) and finish the farm (risk losing the worker). However, depending on how Pin moves, we either stagnate GA (don't grow) if he can reach before we can grow and whip an archer or grow if we can whip an archer in time (send to CC). Cities that haven't reached sz 2 autoraze when captured. We'll have to whip archers since as soon as we lose access to iron, the axes won't finish.

More importantly, we upgrade the combat 1 warrior to spear and head to Construction asap.

[Nakor]

Ok. The plan is to just kill all scooters units. He has nowhere to retreat to.
So if we can kill a unit, we should do so.

If we whip axes now, do they complete if we loose Iron this turn?
We need to have a chariot standy to disconnect the iron mine should scooter get control.

Let's make the obvious moves (Clam site, move triremes, upgrade warrior, whipping) and make some screenshots.
And then end turn. Not a lot we can do.

If we leave the chariot in GA, Scooter can't take it this turn. If we leave GA, scooter can use his 7th Galley to take GA without landing first.

[novice]

If we whip axes now, do they complete if we loose Iron this turn?

No.

[CFCJesterFool]

Ok. The plan is to just kill all scooters units. He has nowhere to retreat to.
So if we can kill a unit, we should do so.

If we whip axes now, do they complete if we loose Iron this turn?
We need to have a chariot standy to disconnect the iron mine should scooter get control.

Let's make the obvious moves (Clam site, move triremes, upgrade warrior, whipping) and make some screenshots.
And then end turn. Not a lot we can do.

If we leave the chariot in GA, Scooter can't take it this turn. If we leave GA, scooter can use his 7th Galley to take GA without landing first.

We won't be able to complete any axes...already checked using the sim. GA will autoraze if captured. I don't think we can prevent that but we can leave the chariot there I suppose. I won't be able to play for a few hours so if you can do so earlier go ahead. I'll be back online when I get done with RL.

[CFCJesterFool]

Turn finished...

Whipped the axe in IW. We either complete it or we deny the pop point to Pin. Both CC and FoF 2 pop whipped archers. CG will 1 pop whip an archer next turn and then probably 2 pop whip a trireme the turn after overflowing into another archer. FoF probably needs another archer then trireme/walls/archer depending on the situation. We'll also whip archers in the other cities next turn as well. FG will probably transport an archer over to SM while the two triremes converge towards CC. Now we wait...

Edit: Almost forgot, we upgraded a C1 warrior to spear to go along with the axe guarding FoF. Now we just need lots of archers.

[Nakor]

Great job! Now we wait...

[Bacchus]

Could you explain the logic behind moving that axe out of the forest onto the flatland iron mine?

[CFCJesterFool]

After sobering up a bit, and thinking about it again...seems we allowed ourselves to get manipulated to our disadvantage. Correct me if I am wrong but the attacker determines the turn order once war begins (i.e. if we play and then we get attacked we always go first in the turn to avoid double moves; conversely, if the attacker attacks us before we play, we always go second in the turn). So there should have been no communication required at all since the turns before the war are irrelevant in deciding how the double movement rules are applied. The whole "we've been playing after you for the past few turns so you need to go first" was disingenuous (most likely based on a flawed understanding of the double movement rules) and a breach of the rules as well (in a no contact game i.e. AI diplomacy). Net effect, we (by that I mean me) allowed ourselves to be nudged (or pwn'd if you like) into willingly accepting going first in the war, which I might add is more advantageous to the attacker, when by the rules we didn't have to (we weren't the attacker).

Long story short : we gave away the defender's advantage when we didn't have to.

Addendum : I replied to the PM, Nakor was sleeping so had no part in it. I am the scumbag but I am coming clean so there. I just choose to not make an issue of it although I alluded to it in the tech thread (epic drunk rant ) No personal grudge ofc, Pindicator is a nice dude. Almost forgot, Scooter sent the PM NOT Pin. Don't take this personal Scooter (when and if you read this), I've just decided that honesty is the best policy. If I get banned from playing in any more games, so be it, at least I was honest...the prerequisite for fairness. We all make mistakes (I tend to make them when I drink)...the important part is how you deal with your mistakes.

Edit: side note - Four Loko FTW! If you are 21+ (18+ in Louisiana), I recommend Four Loko - great beverage; A 42 yr old man does what he likes and besides I served my country already (US Army). Don't know why I am sharing this but I did start drinking again. :D

[Krill]

Correct me if I am wrong but the attacker determines the turn order once war begins (i.e. if we play and then we get attacked we always go first in the turn to avoid double moves; conversely, if the attacker attacks us before we play, we always go second in the turn). So there should have been no communication required at all since the turns before the war are irrelevant in deciding how the double movement rules are applied.

The turn before war is declared also matters though: scooter played T115 before you, so if he had declared war on T116 and moved before you, that would have been a double move. That is why scooter said this:

we've been playing after you for the past few turns so you need to go first

This is the explanation why he had to wait for you to play T116 before he could move those units. However, because you didn't play the turn, he sent the PM as a heads up to ensure you understood what was needed. If you had played the turn in the first, say, 16 hours then ended turn, scooter could have played the turn without having to send a PM. Sending a heads up message doesn't generally occur: I know that I neither sent nor received any in PB5 for instance but in that game I didn't need to, I managed to slot straight into a turn split without any trouble.

Net effect, we (by that I mean me) allowed ourselves to be nudged (or pwn'd if you like) into willingly accepting going first in the war, which I might add is more advantageous to the attacker, when by the rules we didn't have to (we weren't the attacker).

I'm not going to comment on whether one half is better than the other, because I would at least imply a spoiler. What I can say is that one lurker has explained the idea thus:

Basically, the idea is that you should always leave for other players an opportunity to attack you without violating double-move rules - irrespective of real intentions of these other players.