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In that screenshot, adding a tp adds 2fpt, and adding a granary adds at least 2fpt (when you distribute the food stored in the granary over the turns used to grow.) So I would go with the granary. Not planning to whip isn't really relevant, and adding more food surplus by adding clams skews things further in favour of the granary.
If you had only desert and resourceless coast, TP before granary would make sense. At size 1 you'd need 22 turns to gain 11 granary food, but in 22 turns a TP would yield 22 food, plus extra commerce from working an additional coast at size 2. Even in this case a granary could be competitive though, if you complete it before the food box is half full.
Edit: think of it as the TP giving an additive bonus and the granary giving a multiplicative bonus.
I have to run.
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novice Wrote:In that screenshot, adding a tp adds 2fpt, and adding a granary adds at least 2fpt (when you distribute the food stored in the granary over the turns used to grow.) So I would go with the granary. Not planning to whip isn't really relevant, and adding more food surplus by adding clams skews things further in favour of the granary.
If you had only desert and resourceless coast, TP before granary would make sense. At size 1 you'd need 22 turns to gain 11 granary food, but in 22 turns a TP would yield 22 food, plus extra commerce from working an additional coast at size 2. Even in this case a granary could be competitive though, if you complete it before the food box is half full.
Hmm, ok thanks for the comments, they're helpful.
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Granary first there looks better to me. Your plan is to whip 2->1 and then 4->2, right? Granary here has only a couple turns of startup cost - 2t after you finish it you grow back to size 2 which is where your growth caps out. At this point granary is doubling your food surplus of 7 while the lighthouse is only providing 2f. This is such a drastic difference that the slight delay in the granary food is irrelevant. Granary gets to size 3 at the same time and is faster to size 4. Unlike TP it regrows in just 1t after whipping the second building. Ultimately it ends up a full 2t ahead of TP first.
I like to think of a Granary as having +1 pop point, who doesn't increase your growth costs, and who is working an X/0/0 tile; X is equal to your food surplus + 2. In this case X is nine.
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SevenSpirits Wrote:Granary first there looks better to me. Your plan is to whip 2->1 and then 4->2, right? Granary here has only a couple turns of startup cost - 2t after you finish it you grow back to size 2 which is where your growth caps out. At this point granary is doubling your food surplus of 7 while the lighthouse is only providing 2f. This is such a drastic difference that the slight delay in the granary food is irrelevant. Granary gets to size 3 at the same time and is faster to size 4. Unlike TP it regrows in just 1t after whipping the second building. Ultimately it ends up a full 2t ahead of TP first.
If you're talking about the current situation (Copper Beeches) - no, I plan to finish the TP at size 1 due to the horses without a whip. Though I'm pretty sure you are referring to the FInal Problem picture, but that screenshot is pretty old - about 15T ago (city now has TP and granary both).
Regardless, from these comments I do think the couple times I've used TP first was probably too cute and not beneficial. Though I'm thinking if I was ORG it may have paid off in a couple spots, but I'm neither ORG nor EXP here.
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Sorry, indeed I was replying to this:
Quote:I elected to get the TP done here first, whipping it to completion. The land tiles here are garbage, so I'm pretty much working coast exclusively. Also, this was keeping in mind that I was about to pop borders and net those clams, so I was able to work 2 TP-enhanced seafood. At that point, double-whipping the granary was actually worth it, so we did it. In retrospect I still feel pretty OK about this decision. You agree or no?
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The granary takes 2-pop to whip though, no? So I don't think you can reverse that operation...
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NobleHelium Wrote:The granary takes 2-pop to whip though, no? So I don't think you can reverse that operation...
The hammers must have got into the TP somehow.  I'm explaining about granary vs TP first, not saying what to do in the screenshot (which is old anyway).
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See scooter? I trust your micro and look what happens! :neenernee
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dazedroyalty Wrote:See scooter? I trust your micro and look what happens! :neenernee
Well uh, good news is this game I've probably done better micro here than all my past games. Bad news - that's not exactly the most challenging accomplishment ever  . It's getting better, slowly but surely. I actually make this effort to show the micro in detail because I know there are people smarter than me reading these, and it's nice to get corrections every now and then. So thanks guys.
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Dazed just played T124. Popped in after and took a quick look around. Saw something funny in the event log - "Hinduism has spread in Aiur." We don't have a city named Aiur. Neither does Brist right? Yep, apparently so. Ok, who else. Azza is apparently naming his after Pokemon cities, so he's out. I check Nakor's cities, nope, he doesn't have one either. So I was pretty confused. I spent like 3 minutes pouring over the map and then:
![[Image: t124_hinduspread.JPG]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5826112/PB5/t124_hinduspread.JPG)
Haha uh I'll take it? I have no idea why it spread this far. Also, I just realized how close we are to circumnav! That's REALLY close. If there's some sort of northern passageway, we really should get on that. It sure doesn't look like it, but we need to make sure, and if not, we need to get to Optics fast. Anyways, I have no idea why the game did this? But ok. +1 gold for us.I really hope he converts and spreads it - that'd be just awesome. He does have Christianity in one city, but this city looks more like a capital than that other city, so I'm guessing this is the priority for him. So yeah, spread away Yuri! Also, Dazed did our whip at Last Bow:
![[Image: t124_lastbow_of.JPG]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5826112/PB5/t124_lastbow_of.JPG)
Admittedly it's tricky to get this much whip overflow with the 2 pop nerf, so we did it with a 1 pop whip. Stupid, but it works. That's 33h of overflow + 6 base hammers so 33 + 100% (stone) + 50% (IND) ==> 82h which will get us well on our way to finishing Moai and then this city will rock pretty hard. Also, why does the city say I'm getting 7 base hammers? It's one from the center, 5 from the stone. Not sure where the 7th is coming from. ANy ideas? Is the stone actually 6 and we're getting a graphical glitch?
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