GeneralKilCavalry and thestick talk it out

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Was Hunting a five-turn tech?

Yes.

BTW, your micro sheet had some mistakes, but its ok, we should talk about micro over the weekend.

No diplo yet.

[thestick]

T6 Report:

   
Just chugging along.

Our 15 land tiles are 1.46% of total land area, so the map is 1,027 tiles large. 

The whole BUG letting you see what tiles your cities are working is nice.

Stupid ideas for a second city? If we were Creative I'd think of something silly like 1SW of the Pigs and pump hammers with all the second-ring grassland hills, but that's out for the moment. Leaning towards 3E or 4E of the capital, at least until we scout up the river.

EDIT: Though realistically, it's probably wherever Copper shows up.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

I was thinking of settling 1s of the nearby sheep, since we could share the capital's mine for another worker. I'll try to wheel the scout back around to our lands for barb defogging

Also, check the sim later today maybe? I'll be updating it rn

(Micro Expansive Spreadsheet is the one...)

[thestick]

Note to self, capital pops third-ring borders on T50.

With what I can see at the moment, I think that 1N of the sheep 3E1S of our capital is superior to 1S of the sheep. We get all the same land visible land tiles as 1S of the sheep, but gain a plains hill spot and the ability to steal the Toulon's sheep. Plus that plains hill mine will get us to the magic 6 HPT for Workers and Work Boats (though gut still wants the grassland hill mine, for more efficient food/hammer conversion).

I really think we should wheel our scout back. We should try to scout out the area southeast of our capital, right now we're settling blind. Plus the immediate river valley north of our capital seems more pressing than land 'over there.' Though this is definitely a micro, sandbox focused perspective rather than a 'let's find our neighbors and start diplo' perspective.

The other question is macro-level whether we want our second city to be so close to our capital, but I think that all else equal, it should. We'll only have one worker and maybe one warrior by the time that our city comes out. Think we need to build up more of those two (plus The Wheel) before we start settling farther cities. Plus things won't be terrible if we have to settle our third city third-ring to the north of our capital. Second city takes the south sheep, third city takes the north sheep, and the capital takes the crabs.

Will check the micro. Do you have a sandbox for this version of the mod?

Anyone have barb spawning rules somewhere? When do they start?

[thestick]

I have no idea how BPT calculations work. Whee. Where are we getting these numbers?

T19, I think we should be getting 4 HPT, not 3. (2 base + 1 overflow) * 1.35.

Also, edited the spreadsheet a bit, am too frazzled by looking at rows of near-identical numbers to double check everything again. Will double check later.

Looks like the micro question is whether we should work the unimproved sheep or ivory before the Pasture finishes. Current plan has us growing to Size 4 on T25, wonder if there's a way to squeeze that down a turn. Though we've probably near the point of diminishing returns on micro...

Unless our scout finds something amazing nearby, tech ideas? Thinking The Wheel (copper hookup, hopefully) -> Animal Husbandry (happy = whipping, plus horses = bestunits).

[thestick]

Time for random, sleepless thoughts.

Raskol: Bismarck (Expansive/Industrious) of India (Mysticism/Mining, +1 happy +1 health 45 hammer Granary, stronger Pikeman)

This combo could be trouble in the early game. Once he gets past the poor starting techs, Expansive/cheap Granaries/Stonehenge will take him far. Then add Oracle/Pyramids and the Classical era gets ugly.

Mr. Cairo: Catherine (Creative/Imperialistic) of France (Agriculture/The Wheel, +1 movement musket, +1 free specialist Observatory)

(Note to self: Imperialistic gives bonuses to Customs Houses, which give naval XP)

Land grab leader is land grab. France power comes a bit late. Creative Observatory synergy is probably too small to chase. Not too threatening, though bonuses in the Renaissance could be annoying.

Superdeath: Joao (Expansive/Imperialistic) of Inca (Agriculture/Mysticism, +1 culture 45 hammer Granary, +100% Archer Warrior)

Land grab, Mark 2. Same thing with Raskol, except more one-trick and less threatening after the immediate opening. Hope we have copper and he doesn't go for a Quechua choke.

TBW: Boudica (Aggressive/Charismatic) of America (Agriculture/Fishing, +1XP Gunpowder/Mounted +2XP Melee Barracks, Guerilla/Woodsman musket)

(Note to self: Monuments no longer give Charismatic happy).

Can you say big stick diplomacy? 5 EXP C1 Axes and Formation Spears with Barracks, yeesh. Plus Barracks-activated C1/Shock HAs (no need for Stables), 7 EXP WE/Knights with Stables/(cheap) Colosseum, and Guerilla 2 double-hill move draftable muskets.

The happiness bonus of Charismatic will depend on how lush the map is with luxuries. Charismatic happy will probably be most powerful in the early Classical era, when limping to Monarchy/Calendar. No idea how tech trading changes those calculations.

I expect a Horse Archer rush. Frankly, I think his Horse Archers will be more powerful/game-changing than our legions.

Gavagai: Sitting Bull (Protective/Philosophical) of Native America (Agriculture/Fishing, +3 XP Archery +1 XP Gunpowder Monument, Woodsman 3 super-healer Scout that can build Monuments post Archery)

Well, go go granaries, super-early game Missionaries, and crossbows of doom. Plus highly promoted Archers to stop early melee aggression.

Us: Shaka (Aggressive/Expansive) of Rome (Fishing/Mining, 7 str Swordsman, +35% GPP Market)

If we can't use our legions to gain an advantage, we might as well just go home.

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No Organized, Spiritual, or Financial. Most picks lean early. Three Expansive leaders, two civs with Mysticism. Three civs with a Granary discount. No one except Gavagai and TBW have any Medieval power, and Mr. Cairo is the only one with Renaissance power.

Have to wonder when to start angling for a religion... or Stonehenge. (Probably not Stonehenge). Then again, I'm a consumate builder, so your idea might be to just build Barracks everywhere.

Hopefully we can somehow angle with TBW to partition Raskol, Mr. Cairo, or superdeath. Probably won't happen, but one can dream.

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Finally remembered the obvious point of using Granaries to double-whip Expansive Workers. Will mull over Pottery. Note to self that 30*1.35 = 40.5, so Workers can be built up to 19/60 before double-whipping.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

I think we have medieval power with forums. We should be able to get great people out pretty effectively. I think Great Library is one of the wonders we should absolutely grab.

And yes, that 1 hammer is correct! Thanks for catching the mistake.

I pmed you with my sims.

[thestick]

A bit skeptical of the value of the Forum, especially since it comes at Currency. Meanwhile, Gavagai will be rocking that Philosophical academy at Writing, or Oracle->Mids at Priesthood. But eh, we'll see. Hoping the Worker/Work Boat bonuses even it out.

Re: slavery->whip, gut is telling me that we shouldn't, and that we should revolt to Slavery the turn the settler comes out, and two-pop whip a Worker the turn that our city is founded and steals the Sheep. That way we have all food tiles worked at all times. Maybe.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

OFC gavagai will outcome in this aspect, but I hope the forums can help us keep up a bit. 8 GPP instead of 6 is a big help.

Slavery seems to be a worse choice, I agree.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Also, you know what micro is about?

Let me explain.

If we run our current plan of ivory + sheep after its done, we get a suboptimal outcome.

2+2+2+5+5+5 = 21 and then we need another turn +5.

However, running just one turn on the sheep is
2+3+2+5+5+5 = 22!
We grow a turn earlier.

So, we recoup the hammer we lose the next turn on the ivory, but we get an extra food. In this sim, we have 13/24 food on turn 19 instead of 12, but the same overflow hammer, so we have 4 production that turn.

Does it really save us a turn down the line somewhere? Doesn't seem like it. If we could save 2 hammers or 1 food somewhere else, then I think we can get the settler a turn earlier perhaps?