RBP3 IT Office - Email and technical issues

[Exploit]

This is wrong on several counts:

1) Exploit logged in AFTER us last turn.

2) The double-move rule does not remotely require the attacking civ to move before the defending civ. It does require us to move in the first half of the turn, which we did.

3) It seems very silly to me to expect us to change halves of the timer (and force Maya to do the same) so that Exploit can...exploit previously unknown knowledge. We don't even WANT the first half of the turn, but it worked out that we needed to take it in the Mayan war and we made the reasonable assumption that we should just stick with our half. Heck, we aren't even ALLOWED to move in the second half of the turn.

4) Our attack consists of a one-move. It makes no difference when we attack or even if we double-move (though we didn't). It DOES make a difference whether the target knows the attack is coming. In this case Expolit logged in after we DOW'd him in the IT office thread. We would like to request a reload to the start of the turn so we can make our moves in the proper order. EDIT: Not the start of the turn, but before either of us logged in.

That said - no need to burn a pause. We're happy to wait for the issue to be resolved and don't want to force a pause out of you for it.

Players are allowed to login after finishing their move and has no impact on when a turn was played. Hitting end of turn is when a turn has been played and India did that 13 hours after I played my turn.

Just because you login after making your moves to see that you are about to be double moved is not grounds for allowing a double move. The purpose of the double move rule is to allow the player a chance to RESPOND to the move not simply SEE it.

The idea that teams can declare war in the IT thread instead of the game is preposterous. War should not be considered to be declared until it has been done in the game with a DOW. When I logged into the game and started making my move, I was not at war with India in the game.

[sunrise089]

If Exploit finished his turn then it looks like he broke Rule 16 (unless he didn't move any units, including executing worker actions).

Thanks Ruff. I sympathize with Exploit that the timing was bad - he logged in very early so we only JUST posted our DOW message before he started playing. In fact, I linked Exploit in game to the IT office thread and he then paused the game to protest.

Again, DJCiv's real issue here is the potentially ruined surprise. Obviously we can't claim the second half of the turn, but we didn't spam refresh at civstats and then DOW in the IT office the moment the turn rolled either. It didn't really matter to us if we moved 1 hour in or 10 hours in, so long as the 1-move surprise attack wasn't ruined. In fact, we DOW'd so make that easier on everyone - once we claimed our half Exploit wasn't allowed to move so there was no question of our attack getting spoiler OR Exploit not being able to respond to our moves this turn.

The huge problem comes in where Exploit asks to both go before us this turn and knows of our attack. It just isn't possible to play as if he didn't know we were going to DOW now.

The reason we want to reload to right before Exploit logged in is to create a clean slate. That way there is no question (again) that Exploit had an unfair advantage due to knowledge of the attack, and no question the DJCiv is playing in the correct half of the turn and in the correct order.

[sunrise089]

Players are allowed to login after finishing their move and has no impact on when a turn was played. Hitting end of turn is when a turn has been played and India did that 13 hours after I played my turn.

Just because you login after making your moves to see that you are about to be double moved is not grounds for allowing a double move. The purpose of the double move rule is to allow the player a chance to RESPOND to the move not simply SEE it.

The idea that teams can declare war in the IT thread instead of the game is preposterous. War should not be considered to be declared until it has been done in the game with a DOW. When I logged into the game and started making my move, I was not at war with India in the game.

This grows tedious. Exploit - DID YOU SEE OUR UNITS ON T68? If not, why are you complaining about not having a chance to respond? The double move rules have been argued again and again. We clearly followed them in this instance - it's laughable how a team that is forced to move in the first half of the turn can be accused of a double move anyways. Exploit - no one forced you to end turn or play at a certain time. You could log in as many times as you want to and move whatever and whenever you wanted to on T68. DJCiv played in the first half of T68, fufilling the Poll 28 requirement. We then claimed the first half of the turn, fulfilling the Poll 15 requirement.

And, even according to Exploit's own reasoning, he shouldn't be allowed to make any more moves from the moment India DOW'd him in game, right? Finally, jumping into the game each turn and ending turn super early, but logging in many times after, and then claiming any team DOW'ing must have moved not only in the first half of the turn, but during the tiny window before you ended turn, is getting close to "bad faith" IMHO.
____

EDIT:

Wait can we get a clarification - from what it looks like, on T68 India logged in first, but Exploit ended turn first. Also, Exploit ended turn before India posted on here that they were done with all moves. Is that correct or am I wrong? Or is that irrelevant?

IMHO it is irrelevant. We have two rules - a turn split rule that governs every turn after war is declared, and a double move rule that only serves to make sure teams play in the half of the turn they plan to claim before the turn of the war. Exploit is claiming that despite having 12 in-game hours to notice our attack (he couldn't see the units anyways) we broke a rule simply because we ended turn after him on T68 and then wanted to claim the first half of the turn. That's an "interpretation" of the rules that simply isn't backed up by their wording.

[Maniac Marshall]

Not that it's anywhere near the heart of the issue, but I believe the kittens, being friendly, would be amenable to whichever half of the turn if it becomes a sticking point. I'd have to check with my team mates, but I expect that to be the case.

[Exploit]

Before we go to any of the other issues, let us start with the most basic. India did not declare war on me in game until I was already making my move. I had no idea that they had posted an intention to declare war on me in this thread just a few minutes earlier and quite frankly it should be irrelevant.

A declaration of war should only be considered to have happened once it has occurred in game otherwise all sorts of abuses are opened. A declaration of war has in game consequences, like units being moved out of the defenders land when it occurs. I should not have to check this thread every few minutes while I am making my turn to see if someone has declared war on me.

[sunrise089]

Before we go to any of the other issues, let us start with the most basic. India did not declare war on me in game until I was already making my move. I had no idea that they had posted an intention to declare war on me in this thread just a few minutes earlier and quite frankly it should be irrelevant.

A declaration of war should only be considered to have happened once it has occurred in game otherwise all sorts of abuses are opened. A declaration of war has in game consequences, like units being moved out of the defenders land when it occurs. I should not have to check this thread every few minutes while I am making my turn to see if someone has declared war on me.

Ok, so as a start, you agree to not make any more moves from the point we DOW'd in game?

I'm not saying we're happy with merely that, but I want to know where we stand.

[Maniac Marshall]

So I'm getting the idea that I'm not going to be able to whip or swap my tile assignments any time soon . I think I'll just go to bed then.

[Exploit]

I will not be logging in again to make any more moves until it is my turn, whichever half of the turn that is determined to be.

I had finished my turn while you were still logging in (as can be seen in civstats) and I was not at war with anyone in the game at that time so my move was perfectly legal. You therefore declared war on me this turn after I made my move which again I say puts you in the second half of the turn.

Please note this isn't a case of me waiting for the turn flip to make sure I went first. I logged in over an hour after the turn flip.

Exploit, ending turn while the rules dispute is still ongoing is not acting in good faith IMO.

My turn was ended before war was ever declared on me so how can that not be in good faith!

Please note that there is also a time stamp difference between this board and the civstats times since this board places my first post on this issue at 22:18 while civstats posts me finishing my turn at 22:20. My first post came a couple of minutes after I finished my turn because I didn't even check the thread until India sent me a link in game which was after they logged in at 22:20.

That places the timing of my move and India's post on this thread as nearly simultaneous events. I think actions in game should definitely take priority over post in this thread.

[Cyneheard]

You're right, my mistake.

[Exploit]

Time stamp test.