Uncommonly Good: A Story of Elves

[Man Behind the Mask]

That said, despite the teasing that's been going since the setup thread, I don't blame Ravus.

I hope that the smilies and bizarre timing indicated that the rant was more for my own amusement/satisfaction than a genuine grudge. I know that even being a lurker commenting on a map can leave you feeling disappointed and guilty, so in reality I have nothing but gratitude and respect for Ravus after he stepped up. Sadly I don’t think that’s enough to get some good things edited in at this late stage .

It’s also part of the learning experience. People have a pretty good handle on balancing a BTS map. However, the timing, value and nature of resources in FFH is sufficiently different that it’s as much a new challenge as discovering mechanics in the game.

Definitely need more hijinks in this thread...

I’ve been working on something, but it’s not quite turning out how I wanted so will be a little delayed.

Score increases: Runaway Winner (21), Grigori (5), Elohim (5). Rawkking is still on 2 cities like us, Nicolae still hasn't settled his second.

Population numbers indicate that all but one civ is still on two cities.

Hunting is due in 5T. My current thought process for tech path is AH (5), WotF (12), Calendar (4), Crafting (4), Mining (6), Bronze Working (12), Philosophy (8), Priesthood (24). But I'm pretty negotiable on everything after the first two. Obviously all of that will slow down and then speed up, slowing down as we work higher yield foodhammer tiles building workers and settlers that also have lower commerce, then speeding up as cottages get laid down and start maturing and other cities get settled.

As admirable and logical as that path is for developing our little civ, I don’t like the look on those numbers! They put us about 30 turns too late with our priest defence, unless there’s been a major diplo breakthrough that we’re unaware of. I do think you’ve shown an overestimate – even at only our current level of beaker output, I believe we should shave more than 10 turns off that number. However, it serves to reinforce that we really need to make a few big decisions after Way of the Forests (should be about Turn 75):
1. Do we want to avoid war and how can we achieve that?
2. If not, can we reasonably use a Treant defence, and then hope to counter so that we actually gain something?
3. Do we really need priests and tigers, or can we usefully fight with some combination of Hunters, (Bronze) Warriors, Fawns and captured animals?

As I’ve said, the next little while looks pretty much set. However, it’s worth bearing these in mind as we get nearer to decision time. One thing it does suggest is that the next improvements at Hash Pipe should be some cottages – maybe even using the forest-free river tile for the extra coin and reduced worker-time.

[Gaspar]

Busy day, so going to get the turn played and then I'll catch up on the plotting and scheming later.

Score increases: <redacted> 6, Hippus 13, Grigori 6. Hippus settled their 3rd city this turn as well, Pramalot.

Barb Warrior moved to hill NNW of The Chronic. Jobber completed in the capital. I rejiggered tiles so we get another one next turn. I named him Terra Ryzing off MBTM's suggestion, though I'm not entirely sure what our new schema is - is it following along with 1-2-3 Kid in a "before they were stars" scheme? (Terra Ryzing was Triple H before Triple H, for those of you less um, up on sports entertainment history than MBTM and I.) Nonethless, I moved him over to the hill 1W of the city center. That allows me to cover the workers if need be, but get back to the capital if that's necessary as well.

Doritos made his way to Hash Pipe, where the 2nd farm completed. We'll move along to cottaging next up. Anyway, working the 2nd farm has us growing to size 3 in 4T.



And demographics:

[Man Behind the Mask]

I named him Terra Ryzing off MBTM's suggestion, though I'm not entirely sure what our new schema is - is it following along with 1-2-3 Kid in a "before they were stars" scheme? (Terra Ryzing was Triple H before Triple H, for those of you less um, up on sports entertainment history than MBTM and I.)

Sorry, Gaspar. I probably should have been more explicit. I’m quite happy to continue with jobber-warriors. My suggestion was actually names for our upcoming Hunters (geddit, now?). My inner geek thought it was funny, at least . Full list would be something like…

Terra Ryzing
Jean-Paul Levesque
Hunter Hearst Helmsley
Greenwich Blueblood
Hunter
Triple H
HHH
The Game
Cerebral Assassin
King of Kings

Will we build more than 10?

As far as the game goes:
• I hope the Hippus haven’t settled in our direction. That would be ominous. “Congratulations” message is a chance to open some more dialogue with RG.
• Nice to see Hash Pipe getting off the ground. Did you have any thoughts about what point you start working the really good Remnants tile, even if it slows growth a little?
• Rival worst GNP jumped from 21 to 32, suggesting it was them who had Sage->Academy last turn. Best guess up to this point is that’s the Elohim, who have the 2nd smallest empire.
• Neither the Grigori or <redacted> population increases are a new city.
• Looking forward to the impending barbarian smackdown

[Gaspar]

Sorry, Gaspar. I probably should have been more explicit. I’m quite happy to continue with jobber-warriors. My suggestion was actually names for our upcoming Hunters (geddit, now?). My inner geek thought it was funny, at least . Full list would be something like…

Terra Ryzing
Jean-Paul Levesque
Hunter Hearst Helmsley
Greenwich Blueblood
Hunter
Triple H
HHH
The Game
Cerebral Assassin
King of Kings

Will we build more than 10?

As far as the game goes:
• I hope the Hippus haven’t settled in our direction. That would be ominous. “Congratulations” message is a chance to open some more dialogue with RG.
• Nice to see Hash Pipe getting off the ground. Did you have any thoughts about what point you start working the really good Remnants tile, even if it slows growth a little?
• Rival worst GNP jumped from 21 to 32, suggesting it was them who had Sage->Academy last turn. Best guess up to this point is that’s the Elohim, who have the 2nd smallest empire.
• Neither the Grigori or <redacted> population increases are a new city.
• Looking forward to the impending barbarian smackdown

That makes sense, and no, I highly doubt we'll build even 10 hunters. The question is if we get one promoted and we upgrade to Rangers, do we rename or not? And Rangers... military wrestlers? Sgt. Slaughter, Cpl. Kirschner, General Akbar, etc? All of our Priests will actually be the toughest methinks, but that's getting well ahead of ourselves. I'll rename the warrior to something more jobber appropriate next turn.

Re: RoP, I'm a bit torn. I suspected size 4 would be where I worked it, but it might be worth it come size 3. At the least, it would make it a viable candidate for the Hunting Lodge builder rather than the capital, which could focus on turning all its excess foodhammers into more workers and our next settler.

And yeah, Hippus silence since our last missive is a bit conspicuous. If <redacted> used all that extra military to bully Hippus into a long NAP in addition to the aggressive plant, the Horsepeople might feel pressure to use their natural horse rush against us, rather than the more logical threat in the Clowns. Our position sucks. Regardless, I'll have to have a think on an appropriate congratulations message, as you suggested.

[Man Behind the Mask]

A wise man once said about FFH that “balance is achieved by making everything overpowered”. Recent events and discussions in a couple of the other games (not least some of the crazier things you can achieve by pairing civs in a team game) have got my brain churning. I think it might be time to start a new series, and I hope it’s one that we can all join in with.



The intention here is to look at some of the more extreme things that can be achieved with FFH2, and discuss how they can affect our game. We should probably look at the particular abilities of our opponents at some point (*cough* puppet-spam *cough*), but I wanted to started with an advantage that we possess in this game.

[SIZE="3"]SPIRITUAL UNIT FLEXIBILITY AND UPGRADES[/SIZE]

This is a tactic that is by no means exclusive to a Spiritual civilization. However, as demonstrated by the Malakim in other games, a leader like Arendel is much better placed to make use of this strategy for two reasons: spiritual grants free promotions to units; and the necessity to regularly swap religions (and even civics) to take full advantage would be costly if you also had to suffer anarchy on each change.

There are two mechanics in play that we are looking to work with – unit restrictions/requirements, and multiple upgrade paths. FFH places restrictions on units in a number of ways: there are some units completely blocked to civilizations (e.g. we can’t build catapults); there are some units that have a “National Limit” which means that they are restricted in number (most fourth tier units such as Archmages can only be built in limited numbers); some units can only be built if the civ is in a certain religion or civic (most notably you can only construct Priests of your state religion); and some will abandon a civ if they swap out of the civic/religion requirement (religious heroes being the obvious example here). Where our interest lies is in the middle two types. The second mechanic is that many units in FFH can upgrade along an alternative path – whereas the melee progression of warrior->axeman->mace of BTS is a logical and well-worn path, Lightbringer->Disciple of Leaves->Ranger->Druid is a more convoluted journey for a single unit.

I’ve tried to do some testing in-game to confirm things, but some of what follows is necessarily theoretical based on the manual.

There are only four types of units which, as the Ljosalfar, we can build or upgrade but will abandon us if we later change away from their requirement:
- Religious heroes (Question for the masses – can you “Lich” Gibbon or Hemah and keep them if you swap?)
- High Priests of each religion
- Royal Guards (Aristocracy Civic only)
- Shadowrider (Esus religion only)

On the other hand, there is a long list of units which we can grab with a temporary stop by a certain requirement. The ability to swap provides the opportunity for either a more diverse army or one more specialised against a certain opponent. A key benefit of this approach is often to pick up certain promotions as set out below. The list is arranged as unit: requirement – promotion:

Confessor: Order religion – Spirit Guide
Crusader: Order religion – Medic 1, Immune to Disease, Demon Slaying
Cultist, Drown and Stygian Guard: OO religion – Water Walking
Diseased Corpse: Ashen Veil religion – Undead
Fawn: FoL Religion – Woodsman 1
Nightwatch: Esus religion – Hidden Nationality (also benefits from our Dextrous trait)
Paramander: RoK religion – Medic 1, Demon Slaying
Radiant Guard and Ratha: Empyrean religion – Sun2
Shadow: Esus religion in city – Marksman, Invisible
Slave: Captured in combat when running slavery civic
Soldier of Kilmorph: RoK religion – Dwarven, can sacrifice for production

In the true endgame, when anarchy turns are especially costly, religion swapping can flip your alignment and mean that you collect a full set of Paladins, Druids and Eidolons, each with some interesting promotions or spells picked up by other units along the way.

Left out of the above list are the Disciple units for each of the religions, as some of these deserve separate consideration. Firstly, we can build them as long as we have the tech for the religion and the necessary temple (cheap for Spiritual) – this is especially important later when religious heroes mean that you have less flexibility. Secondly, again thanks to our leader trait, they will gain Potency (allowing them to gain passive experience) and Mobility promotions when they are built (in addition to the usual Medic promotion). Thirdly, some have more interesting upgrade paths beyond the basic priest line. And fourthly, they can gain additional XP on construction through the Altar of Luanottar which is not available to other units.

Ecclesiastics are the least useful, as they only upgrade within their own religious line.

Disciples of Leaves also upgrade to Ranger. This is just a simple opportunity to spend a little upgrade gold rather than hammers to start a unit with mobility. Rangers are on our likely tech path.

Zealots, Thanes of Kilmorph and Acolytes also upgrade to each religions’ divine footsoldier (Stygian Guards, Paramanders and Crusaders). One trick available here is to pre-build them when running another religion (or before researching Fanaticism) for a mass-upgrade with free Mobility and some extra XP.

Savants probably present the most interesting option as, once they’ve obtained level 4, they can upgrade straight to mages. Although they can’t take any spell promos before the switch, they can be used to generate powerful summoning mages if you can organise mana for free promotions.

Of course, all of these upgrade antics rely on having some cash available at the time. It’s worth noting that multiplying gold is a little easier than research in FFH. Additionally, the tricks do help to mask a civs true potential. I imagine the power graph change from the 15k power difference between Thanes and Paramanders would come as a shock!

I should probably reach a conclusion based on the title of the series. I think this aspect of the game is NOT broken, but is a significant benefit if you make the necessary investments.

***

We’ve had a few quiet turns, so hopefully all the misconceptions in this will kick some discussion back into gear!

[Gaspar]

Apparently not. I think since Krill took over the <redacted> they've gotten more interesting than us. Also, since they clearly look more interesting than we do with our rough start we're miles behind them, so less interesting to the rest of the teams. For whatever part I've played in us falling so far behind, I'm sorry that I haven't been able to play up to the quality of the thread. Anyway, I'm going to throw something together about our future soonish, hopefully that will at least help generate discussion on our own team. I'm going to report the turn, then I'll follow up with some additional comments on disciple line upgrades.

Foreign news, Orthus was killed. No idea where or by whom. With our luck, it was either <redacted> who put the axe on a griffin or Nicolae, so we can get some blitz PZs. Scorewise, another 11 pts for the leader and the Elohim, and another 6 for Nicolae.

The warrior hit the corn, and so I decided to move the newly renamed Taka Michinoku over to the grass forest hill and then attack. Unfortunately, I accidentally promoted him Drill instead of C1. Fortunately, he won anyway. I wasn't worried because the new jobber built this turn could have cleaned up in a worst case scenario.



Third cottage completed at the capital, first one grew to a hamlet. I fired the sage this turn, which allows us to get a 3T worker in the capital while still getting Hunting in 3T. At Hash Pipe we have 2 farms done and we're working on our first cottage. It'll grow size 3 in 3T, so I'll wait until then to work the Remnants. After the next worker completes in the capital, we probably should probably bang out a couple MP warriors and the get the next settler out, for the Cotton/Pigs/Gold site. Once we get a few Hunters trained with Subdue Animal, we can think about generating a few units to take out the barb city in the north.

Speaking of barb cities...



Doesn't exactly fit in with the dotmap, but free settlers are free settlers. Good chance Nicolae gets it before us, however. If only we had gotten that Adventurer home.

Here are the ever more depressing demos.

[NobleHelium]

I'm kind of overwhelmed by this thread by the way, which is why most of my responses are one-liners.

[Ravus Sol]

Wow you are getting surrounded by Barb cities!

[Man Behind the Mask]

Apparently not.

Maybe I was so comprehensive, nobody has anything to add. I’m severely tempted to make the next one about the clowns, if only so you and Mardoc are exposed to some of the mechanics discoveries in Bob’s PBEM5 thread.

The warrior hit the corn, and so I decided to move the newly renamed Taka Michinoku over to the grass forest hill and then attack. Unfortunately, I accidentally promoted him Drill instead of C1. Fortunately, he won anyway. I wasn't worried because the new jobber built this turn could have cleaned up in a worst case scenario.

Interesting plan to get more XP for that first battle and put him one promo nearer Blitz (good long term thinking ).

At Hash Pipe we have 2 farms done and we're working on our first cottage. It'll grow size 3 in 3T, so I'll wait until then to work the Remnants. After the next worker completes in the capital, we probably should probably bang out a couple MP warriors and the get the next settler out, for the Cotton/Pigs/Gold site.

Micro should work out pretty well at Hash Pipe. Cottage will come in with time to move over to the cows just as AH comes in. Size 3 coincides nicely with dusting off the Elder Council in 2 turns with the Remnants, and then a few more turns of growth on the cottage before putting the Hunting Lodge up at full speed with Cow and Remnants hammers. Despite some aspects about our position in the game, I think we’re moving towards some good progress on our civ.

Speaking of barb cities...



Doesn't exactly fit in with the dotmap, but free settlers are free settlers. Good chance Nicolae gets it before us, however.

First barb city was a pretty good hammer-saver, as I think we can dotmap around it quite easily (if we need to make any changes at all). This new one, I’m not so keen on. It basically blocks both us and Nicloae from having a city on our respective edge of the jungle, so we may be in a bit of a race to claim all that territory. It won’t be very productive if we do get it, and there’s going to be a fair wait for it to grow to size 2 to avoid the autoraze.

Foreign news, Orthus was killed. No idea where or by whom. With our luck, it was either <redacted> who put the axe on a griffin or Nicolae, so we can get some blitz PZs. Scorewise, another 11 pts for the leader and the Elohim, and another 6 for Nicolae.

No C&D at the weekend. I suspect Nicolae’s capital growth will soon be followed by a second city.

[Gaspar]

I'm kind of overwhelmed by this thread by the way, which is why most of my responses are one-liners.

Well, regardless, your one-liners help keep the conversation going. I think in a lot of ways this thread has a feel of one of the PBEM1 threads, because I'm figuring this out as I go along. Sure, I've played at this point a decent amount of SP FFH2, but there's a lot of little mechanics you miss as you go along, etc. Anything that contributes to the conversation contributes to my understanding. I can't speak for everyone else, but I'd think that the rest of the team, non-Mardoc division gains from the same.

Wow you are getting surrounded by Barb cities!

Yeah. Its the consequence of being so slow to get settlers out. We're at a stage now where Barb kill teams probably won't be much of a threat, if we even see one, but it will take some doing to take down fortified Archers in cities.

Maybe I was so comprehensive, nobody has anything to add. I’m severely tempted to make the next one about the clowns, if only so you and Mardoc are exposed to some of the mechanics discoveries in Bob’s PBEM5 thread.

This could be quite helpful, if I ever get around to making my planning post in particular, knowing thine enemy is a pretty big deal. And yeah, I only know PBEM5 from the perspective of the Orcs, though I've learned a good deal about Sons of the Inferno.

Interesting plan to get more XP for that first battle and put him one promo nearer Blitz (good long term thinking ).


Micro should work out pretty well at Hash Pipe. Cottage will come in with time to move over to the cows just as AH comes in. Size 3 coincides nicely with dusting off the Elder Council in 2 turns with the Remnants, and then a few more turns of growth on the cottage before putting the Hunting Lodge up at full speed with Cow and Remnants hammers. Despite some aspects about our position in the game, I think we’re moving towards some good progress on our civ.

Yeah, we're doing okay with what we have. I know I sound awfully demoralized in some of these posts, but that's mostly because I know others are doing much better. I don't really think we've made any huge mistakes. Lots of little mistakes though, like accidentally promoting a warrior to Drill.

First barb city was a pretty good hammer-saver, as I think we can dotmap around it quite easily (if we need to make any changes at all). This new one, I’m not so keen on. It basically blocks both us and Nicloae from having a city on our respective edge of the jungle, so we may be in a bit of a race to claim all that territory. It won’t be very productive if we do get it, and there’s going to be a fair wait for it to grow to size 2 to avoid the autoraze.

No C&D at the weekend. I suspect Nicolae’s capital growth will soon be followed by a second city.

Yeah, its in a bad position. I think Nicolae would keep it, but we should probably raze it. And he surely bound to found city two sometime.

Re: your post about spiritual, do we have a reference somewhere about everythings upgrade paths? I think that might be useful in reference to some of that stuff. At a minimum, I can see compelling reasons to stop by OO, AV, Esus and Empy. RoK and Order have their uses as well, but there's only so many beakers to go around. I'd really, really, really like to found Esus for the possibility of Nox Noctis, the others I'm not really fussed about Shrine or not, though OO's water mana would be useful, as I suspect trading opportunities with the far west will be limited, blocked as we are by the bad guys in the middle. A lot of conjecture on where teams are placed there, of course, but I don't see any reason for Rawkking to lie to us about any of that.