Rebalancing Civ4: RtR Mod

[T-hawk]

Based on Cyneheard's example city, spreading the corporation costs 100 hammers and assuming e.g. 5 Mining inc resources you get 5 hammers at the cost of 10 gold. This feels very expensive.

The Mining Inc hammers get multiplied. With forge/factory/power for +100%, it's a 1:1 conversion from gold to hammers which is cheap. Even better in the Ironworks or Heroic Epic city.

Also, Cyneheard was trying to claim that the above is worthwhile because it's a better conversion ratio (2:1) than Universal Suffrage cash rushing (3:1). I'm not sold on that argument; the US conversion isn't supposed to be efficient; but it is something of a point that the hammer corps obviate cash rushing.

[plako]

The Mining Inc hammers get multiplied. With forge/factory/power for +100%, it's a 1:1 conversion from gold to hammers which is cheap. Even better in the Ironworks or Heroic Epic city.

Also, Cyneheard was trying to claim that the above is worthwhile because it's a better conversion ratio (2:1) than Universal Suffrage cash rushing (3:1). I'm not sold on that argument; the US conversion isn't supposed to be efficient; but it is something of a point that the hammer corps obviate cash rushing.

I thought that I forget something . Still assuming Minig inc. It doesn't seem very worthy to spread it unless you've a rathaus or Headquarters.

If we assume that net win from the Mining inc is 2.5 hammers/turn (same example i.e. 5 resources+size 10 city+no HQ+100% multipiler for hammers). This would mean payback time of 40 turns that feels too long at that stage of the game. I'm not sure about exact number, but payback time 20-30 might be attaracting enough.

Edit. My calculations are way off. Net profit with those settings is 5 hammers giving 20T that is probably good enough.

[Krill]

The issue is mainly with the food corps, and to a lesser extent the hammer corps. The rest, yeah, not that bad.

There is an issue with city spam. Planting new cities that immediately get the corps added and grow to use just specs. Using the gold costs that Cyneheard suggested means that using just a court house the cities will always turn a profit. It isn't hard to plant these kinds of cities. Small gaps appear in most dot maps that you can cram a city in, a city that won't work a single tile, that then benefit from trade routes and other per city boni. You use rep, caste, one of merc or FM, a single tile, a settler and an exec. You cottage every tile you can, drop the slider to generate gold that goes through the gold multipliers to fund the corps expansion. You plant cities on every possible tile and drop execs into them, growing merchants that then generate gold that goes through the gold multipliers again and generate beakers from rep, or use scientists to tech ahead, or engineers if you want the hammers.

If you have multiple religions you can then spread the religion to every single city for more gold, AP religion hammers, more draft cities, greater bonus from SoL etc etc.

I'm not sold on that argument; the US conversion isn't supposed to be efficient; but it is something of a point that the hammer corps obviate cash rushing

US cash rushing can provide better production than SP workshops, and does so before you can get to SP. When you add in the Kremlin (which the tech leader generally gets if he wants it) then workshops are 8.4 hpt, towns are 9, with one full multiplier set for each. The Kremlin isn't used in the above examples Cyneheard gave for good reason.


The problem is that this isn't Corps versus State Property, it is Corps+cottages versus SP. Cottages are better workshops when fully tooled out anyway, at research, gold generation, and a little worse at production, but with Corps on top of that? Corps are a no brainer because they push cottages over the top, they are always available, and still too cheap. Corps would be better balanced if they didn't work with FS or US and the cost per food were increased by 50%. Then they'd need to be brought forward slightly to around Biology and they'd fit in with SP and FS. The rest could be left as is.

[Cyneheard]

The issue is mainly with the food corps, and to a lesser extent the hammer corps. The rest, yeah, not that bad.

There is an issue with city spam. Planting new cities that immediately get the corps added and grow to use just specs. Using the gold costs that Cyneheard suggested means that using just a court house the cities will always turn a profit. It isn't hard to plant these kinds of cities. Small gaps appear in most dot maps that you can cram a city in, a city that won't work a single tile, that then benefit from trade routes and other per city boni. You use rep, caste, one of merc or FM, a single tile, a settler and an exec. You cottage every tile you can, drop the slider to generate gold that goes through the gold multipliers to fund the corps expansion. You plant cities on every possible tile and drop execs into them, growing merchants that then generate gold that goes through the gold multipliers again and generate beakers from rep, or use scientists to tech ahead, or engineers if you want the hammers.

If you have multiple religions you can then spread the religion to every single city for more gold, AP religion hammers, more draft cities, greater bonus from SoL etc etc.




US cash rushing can provide better production than SP workshops, and does so before you can get to SP. When you add in the Kremlin (which the tech leader generally gets if he wants it) then workshops are 8.4 hpt, towns are 9, with one full multiplier set for each. The Kremlin isn't used in the above examples Cyneheard gave for good reason.


The problem is that this isn't Corps versus State Property, it is Corps+cottages versus SP. Cottages are better workshops when fully tooled out anyway, at research, gold generation, and a little worse at production, but with Corps on top of that? Corps are a no brainer because they push cottages over the top, they are always available, and still too cheap. Corps would be better balanced if they didn't work with FS or US and the cost per food were increased by 50%. Then they'd need to be brought forward slightly to around Biology and they'd fit in with SP and FS. The rest could be left as is.

FYI: Those gold costs were post-courthouse.

The thing is that if you run FS, the only way a food corporation as a specialist-generator is going to work is if you also run Rep. Rep/FS with about 5g/food costs for these specialist-only cities is doable (but barely above break-even, and only after building at least courthouse, library/uni/observatory, and that's if your empire doesn't have a positive beaker/gold skew already), but then you're passing up Universal Suffrage to make it work, and also paying the up-front investment costs of spreading the corporation. It pays out very slowly, with a lot of investment going into it; the HQ commerce also doesn't quite pay for itself, even if you spend a Great Person on the shrine.

I didn't want to remove corps completely from people who run Free Speech because that removes any flexibility in using corps in a few specific cities, and would basically require that running FS means running State Property, while now there's at least a choice in the matter: you may want a few corporations in specific spots.



I'm aware that HRE and the Zulu get to run corporations more freely, and for them this logic doesn't really apply.

[Cyneheard]

RB Mod 1.2 is finished. The full changelog from the base game, as well as the mod itself, will go up in the next post.

Changelog from v1.1:
Civics:
Free Market's -25% Corporate Costs was removed.
Free Market now gives +25% Trade Route Yield (This is to make FM significantly stronger on all-land maps; foreign routes will be a minimum of 3 commerce, and the benefit will be much smaller for cities with harbors)

Justification: If -25% Corporate Costs had stayed, I would have balanced corporate costs based on players running Free Market (after all, Merc and Enviro aren't that much stronger if you aren't running corporations), and it would have had odd interactions with Free Speech's corporate penalty, so it would have meant that Free Market would be the Only Right Choice for significant use of corporations. The Trade Route yield buff makes FM a little more viable overall, especially on land maps.

Mercantilism no longer blocks Foreign Corporations. This was necessary to make the executive-spawning work properly.

Environmentalism:
No longer increases Corporate costs
Provides +2 happiness for cities with granaries.
Requires Scientific Method instead of Medicine.

Justification: Enviro needs a buff. Mercantilism gives you specialists, FM gives you some flat commerce, and now Enviro lets you grow your cities a little better, and comes into play much sooner.

Free Speech:
High Upkeep (was Low Upkeep)
Increases Corporate costs by 50%

Justification: Creates a trade-off between running lots of Corporations and a cottage economy, without forcing the choice one way or the other.

Executives:
Executives will never fail to spread the corporation (so that one bad die roll doesn't completely cut off one's access to a corporation)
When a player completes the relevant corporation tech, they get a free executive. The first player to complete that tech also triggers a "_____ Executive was born in ________" message, like a Great Person.
Executives require Corporation and their corporation's founding tech to be built; this does not apply to the first free executive.

Justification: This makes corporations widely available, instead of a snowballing way for a (possibly temporary) tech leader to permanently run ahead of their opponents.

Corporate Headquarters:
Headquarters are still built by the same Great Person that initially enabled them, but can be built only once and in any city where the corporation exists. The Headquarters itself only produces 1 gold per city with the corporation.

Justification: this makes the Great People optional, and has it work more like a shrine. While the HQ comes later than a shrine would, it is also likely to be spread more widely than a religion. Also, this means that corporations aren't essentially paying for themselves by running the Headquarters through Wall Street, and that a corporation can exist independently of one's control of the headquarters.

Corporate maintenance and yields:
Using this as my data source: Corporate Maintenance Explained, I made some changes to the level of maintenance paid by a corporation.
1) Difficulty no longer affects corporate maintenance. The power of corporations shouldn't vary by difficulty level; tile improvements and specialists don't, so why should the other pillar of one's economy vary so greatly?
2) Corporate maintenance was increased significantly. The example maintenance costs are for a size-10 city on a Standard map in a Civ not running Free Speech, but has a Courthouse in the city. Originally, the cost was 0.75g*Difficulty Modifier per resource (or 1g per food on Noble for Cereal Mills, and 1.5g/food on Deity). The actual cost of running a corporation = (1 + # of Standard Map-equivalent Resources) * the cost per resource given below.

• Sid's Sushi: 0.5f and 2 culture per resource. Costs were increased to 300%, or 2.25g per resource, for 4.5g for 1 food and 4 culture.
  
• Cereal Mills: 0.5f per resource. Costs were increased to 267%, and the yield decreased from 0.75f per resource to 0.5f per resource. Costs are now 2g per resource, or 4g for 1f.
  
• Mining Inc.: 1h per resource. Costs were increased to 267%, or 2g per base hammer.
  
• Creative Constructions: 0.5h and 3 culture per resource. Costs were increased to 167%, or 1.25g per resource, for a cost of 2.5g for 1 base hammer and 6 culture.
  
• Aluminum, Inc.: 3 beakers per coal. Still provides aluminum. Costs were increased to 133%, or 1g per coal. However, one has few enough coals that this plays a minor role at best. Usually there are little more than 1 coal resource per person.
  
• Standard Ethanol: 2 beakers per resource. Still provides oil. Costs were increased to 133%, or 1g per resource. However, Standard Ethanol conflicts with the food corps, so its value is relatively marginal.
  
• Civ Jewelers: 1g and 4 culture per resource. Costs were increased to 133%, or 1g per resource for 1g and 4 culture.
  

Yes, the cost of generating culture is intentionally kept low; it's only truly valuable if you're going for a cultural victory, which we haven't seen seriously attempted since PBEM1, and that was at the same time as the other victory conditions (Diplo and Space) were in play.

[Cyneheard]

I should also note that this version is sufficiently final that it can be used in an RBMod PBEM, and I'm not planning on making any more changes for some time, UNLESS T-Hawk gets a chance before the RBMod PBEM starts to make Spies not see units, in which case I'll remove Secretive and swap in that fix instead.

RBMod v1.2:
This one includes a DLL fix, and is available here: RB V1.2

Changelog, v1.1:
1) Tile Changes:
Watermills: +1 base hammers, no longer receives +1h at Rep Parts
Workshops: +1 base hammers, no longer receives +1h at Chemistry
Mines: +1h at Rep Parts

2) Civic Changes:
Vassalage now provides free support for military units as well (meaning Pacifism is cheaper), and is Medium Upkeep
Slavery: 30h for the 1st pop, 20h for the 2nd pop and subsequent pops. So, 30/50/70/90. On Quick speed, that's 20/33/46/60. *CHANGE from 0.3*
Serfdom: +75% Worker Speed, +1h for Watermills and Windmills
Free Market: No longer provides -25% Corporate Costs. Now provides +25% Trade Route Yield.
Environmentalism: No longer provides +25% Corporate Costs. Now provides +2 happiness for cities with a granary.
Free Speech: Now High Upkeep, and increases Corporate Costs by 50%

3) The Draft
Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft. A city must now end a draft at size 7 instead of size 5 (So size 9 to draft a rifle, size 8 to draft a musket).

4) War Weariness
Decays 10%/turn during Peacetime. *Change from 0.3/0.4: Wartime WW is now unchanged*

5) Espionage
Switch Civic and Switch Religion now require Future Tech
Spies now spawn with "Secretive", and cannot see tiles except the one they're standing on.
The No Espionage game option now works properly:
GSpy points are converted into Great Merchant points
Espionage no longer gets converted into culture
Cultural expansion now happens at normal values
Spies cannot be built
Graphs are always visible on contact

6) Wonder Changes
[strike]The Great Wall now provides Great Merchant points[/strike] This has been restored to GSpy points.
Red Cross: 200h
West Point: 550h, +5XP. Now requires a lvl 5 unit (17XP/13XP for Cha)

7) Unit Changes:
War Elephants are now 7 str, +50% vs. Mounted units, and +25% vs. Knights

8 ) UU and UB changes:
Terraces now give +1 culture
Praetorians have no Penalty
Cataphracts are 11 strength
Ballista Elephants are 8 str, +50% vs. Mounted units, +25% vs. Knights, and still target Mounteds outside of a city (this buff was to make them better than regular WE against their nemesis, Knights)
Vultures now get +30% vs. Melee.
The Fast Worker is now 2 moves, but starts with Mobility (-1 Terrain Movement Costs).

American Mall: Now replaces the Grocer. Provides +1 happy for Deer, Sugar, Hit Singles, Hit Movies, and Hit Musicals
American Minuteman: Replaces the Rifleman, starts with Gureilla I and Woodsman I
Japanese Pagoda: Replaces the Observatory. +10% hammers.
German Assembly Plant: Normal factory, but enabled at Steam Power
German Kanone: Replaces the Cannon, costs 80h instead of 120h
Russian Research Institute: Replaces the university, +1 free scientist

9) Trait changes:
Financial: Require 3 commerce on land to receive the bonus commerce. Water tiles still only require 2 commerce to receive the bonus, though. Remember: A Golden Age cannot trigger Financial's bonus yield (as in the base game).
Expansive: No longer gets double-speed granaries, but gets double-speed grocers. +35% Worker Production.
Creative: Restored to vanilla BtS version: Provides +2 culture, and still provides cheap libraries.
Charismatic: +2 happiness, but no longer gets +1 happy from Monuments
Protective: Double-speed granaries
Imperialistic: Double-speed Custom Houses (At least this gives Imp something on water maps. For flavor, Custom Houses are very mercantile, which is what 17th century Imperialism was). +67% Settler Production.

10) Corporations
You get a free executive when you complete the relevant corporation tech. The first free executive of that corporation triggers a Born In A Foreign Land message on the Events tab.
Executives require Corporation and that corporation tech to be built.
Executives never fail to spread a corporation.
Headquarters only provides +1 gold per corporate branch. Must be built in a city after the corporation has already been placed in the city.
Cereal Mills only provides +0.5f per resource, down from 0.75f per resource.
Corporate costs increased significantly:
Sid's costs 300% of the old costs (4.5g for 1 food and 4 culture with a courthouse in a size 10 city)
Cereal Mills costs increased to 267% (4g for 1 food)
Mining Inc costs increased to 267% (2g for 1 hammer)
Creative Constructions costs increased to 167% (2.5g for 1 hammer and 6 culture)
Standard Ethanol costs increased to 133% (1g for 2 beakers)
Aluminum Co. costs increased to 133% (1g for 3 beakers, but only per coal resource)
Civ Jewelers costs increased to 133% (1g for 1g and 4 culture)

11) Miscellaneous:
Coastal Blockade now has a range of 1 square around the blockader, instead of 3 squares

[T-hawk]

UNLESS T-Hawk gets a chance before the RBMod PBEM starts to make Spies not see units, in which case I'll remove Secretive and swap in that fix instead.

I can have a look starting Monday evening, but not sure if I can come up with a solution either within a day or two or at all.

Japanese Pagoda: Replaces the Observatory. +10% hammers.

Ha, it occurs to me that we ended up tilting Japan (very slightly) towards being a naval power after all, by getting them to prioritize Astronomy.

Executives require Corporation and that corporation tech to be built.

They also require their corp to be present in the city, right? (as in the base game)

I didn't test this: can the first free executive establish its branch even if you don't know Corporation tech?

[Cyneheard]

They also require their corp to be present in the city, right? (as in the base game)

I didn't test this: can the first free executive establish its branch even if you don't know Corporation tech?

Yes, and yes.

[T-hawk]

Should we fix that? Or leave it be and rationalize it on flavor? If it's only one branch, it's not really a public corporation, it's more like one of those mercantile royal charter companies.

[Cyneheard]

T-Hawk, if you want to fix it in the DLL, go ahead.

The e-mail discussion we had centered on delaying the spreading action until the executive's owner knew Corporation, so the exec would be sitting there eating maintenance until you did finish Corporation.