[SPOILER] PBEM 13 Lurker Thread (No players!)

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Normal speed.

If Nospace spends any time looking at their border cities, he'd probably notice the "%Spanish" part of the culture bar rapidly increasing, and take appropriate countermeasures.

The best option for Ruff is to probably start blowing up key infrastructure and try to rack up unrest and unhealth in core Nospace cities. Still incredibly expensive considering how large Nospace's empire is. Hammers that could be spent on Cavalry must be spent on Spies.

[Krill]

You can't steal yourself to space if the other players aren't teching to space.

The only other "real" options are to retool to tech or go all out for war. Tech shouldn't be that hard, with Democracy and Liberalism in the bag, yet Ruff is seriously behind in all of the demographics and in power. It underlines that espionage is not a method of winning the game out right.

TBH, if NoSpace pushed expansion, I think they might get close to the domination limit by claiming all of the northern land.

[TheMeInTeam]

You can't steal yourself to space if the other players aren't teching to space.

The only other "real" options are to retool to tech or go all out for war. Tech shouldn't be that hard, with Democracy and Liberalism in the bag, yet Ruff is seriously behind in all of the demographics and in power. It underlines that espionage is not a method of winning the game out right.

TBH, if NoSpace pushed expansion, I think they might get close to the domination limit by claiming all of the northern land.

No, IMO retooling is the wrong idea. If this is a clash between the last 2 civs that are major players, he should go full-bore espionage and fight a parity war...if forced to do it. Some arguments of that approach:

1. He can see into cities if he doesn't blow all his EP. Hiding army movement becomes very difficult...and know exactly what is produced where isn't a small advantage.
2. He can use mobile units and fight against cities w/o defensive bonuses (through support city revolt).
3. He needs little total infra investment at this point and can focus on military + spies
4. He can force his opponent's hand. If, in addition to stealing at parity, he causes major damage to his opponent's econ through spies (boring and micro intensive, but possible) he can eventually overtake them. Poison water + destroy granary + destroy harbor/aqueduct/grocer is extremely obnoxious. Arguably even better is doing that with happiness because it forces the opponent to either run inefficient culture slider, rush buy/whip, or starve.

I just don't see the EP culture method on an opponent paying attention. He'd be better off going pure culture.

[Krill]

No, IMO retooling is the wrong idea. If this is a clash between the last 2 civs that are major players, he should go full-bore espionage and fight a parity war...if forced to do it. Some arguments of that approach:

1. He can see into cities if he doesn't blow all his EP. Hiding army movement becomes very difficult...and know exactly what is produced where isn't a small advantage.
2. He can use mobile units and fight against cities w/o defensive bonuses (through support city revolt).
3. He needs little total infra investment at this point and can focus on military + spies
4. He can force his opponent's hand. If, in addition to stealing at parity, he causes major damage to his opponent's econ through spies (boring and micro intensive, but possible) he can eventually overtake them. Poison water + destroy granary + destroy harbor/aqueduct/grocer is extremely obnoxious. Arguably even better is doing that with happiness because it forces the opponent to either run inefficient culture slider, rush buy/whip, or starve.

I just don't see the EP culture method on an opponent paying attention. He'd be better off going pure culture.

None of that actually works against someone else who has more cities, a larger army and no need to actually tech anything anymore. NoSpace will just up the EP slider themselves, swapping between rush buying necessary infrastructure and units, and running more EP. They have more cities to build EP buildings in and are FIN so gain more on a per tile basis when they start throwing cottages down in all of the new cities.

They can out EP the original EP-er.

[Pegasus]

Having spent 3 whole evenings trawling through NSA's thread, I cannot see how they are going to lose this game, unless they just give up.

They appear as eager now as they were from turn 1. The effort they are putting into this game is just relentless.

What do you peeps think to Ruff's proposal options?

I think his best option is to go for war but he will just get outproduced and over run in the end, and it wouldn't surprise me if novice has microplanned a culture victory already anyhow.

[TheMeInTeam]

None of that actually works against someone else who has more cities, a larger army and no need to actually tech anything anymore. NoSpace will just up the EP slider themselves, swapping between rush buying necessary infrastructure and units, and running more EP. They have more cities to build EP buildings in and are FIN so gain more on a per tile basis when they start throwing cottages down in all of the new cities.

They can out EP the original EP-er.

Then what makes you think Ruff can possibly win culture this way ?

It sounds to me like they'd have to seriously choke for him to even stand a chance. More cities, better tech position, stronger military...that's usually a W unless you can draw 3rd party interference. I don't see him retooling and teching though! That's just going to make the gap between the empires even larger in the meantime...think about the #hammers required to invest in infrastructure!

[Krill]

I don't think he can. I just think it's his best shot, especially if he could one turn the culture victory.

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't think he can. I just think it's his best shot, especially if he could one turn the culture victory.

I think a desperation military campaign has a better chance of victory (however small) than a drawn-out attempt at a culture win which is going to be painfully obvious is coming...maybe he can use spread culture to get a favorable tactical situation but that's it. EP culture win attempt will be more annoying than a serious threat.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

I'm still not convinced the espionage economy by itself beats the convention commerce-specialist-beaker economy. While yes, espionage by itself has an incredibly efficient commerce:beaker ratio, you lose a great deal of your snowball from getting key techs many turns after someone else gotten a benefit from them, and someone else will be getting the first-to bonuses earlier (whether they be unique techs or great people or simply growth/building benefits).

Alternatively, Nospace simply played better. On yet the other hand, the EPer needs a receptive beneficiary who will not crash down the commerce:beaker efficiency of the EPer using defensive espionage.

[TheMeInTeam]

^ EP is superior as an empire gets larger relative to others. It is a powerful catch-up mechanic because you can easily convert s: into slider-independent research, and with all the relevant multipliers a single spy spec gives 10 espionage points! This on top of stationary spy.

That makes the proper timing to use espionage to tech to be a situation where you are ahead on land and especially cities, but likely not going to be able to get ahead on tech easily.

That also makes some sense from the "how to win" standpoint; humans can rarely win offensive wars unless they have one of

Surprise
Tech lead
Massive #'s advantage

Espionage for a large empire lets it remove 2 of those things from the enemy ASAP and holds onto the 3rd.