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Research costs

I wasn't trying to say this is an ideal system. Instead I was answering your question of 'how is the player limited from spending their mana on research', to which I gave the answer that currently exists on the game.

You can certainly increase income, and therefore increase the costs associated to things, but you need to do so in a way that is better than the current system.

Due to arguments already provided about comparative costs between research and cities, I do not think any proposal that relies on increasing city costs is better than the current system.

I believe a better system would be to embrace that, for the humans, a large amount of income is meant to cone from treasure (which cannot be converted to research). However, as pointed out, currently that system is flawed, because in many cases, there doesn't seem to be available treasure.

So, make more available treasure. This requires two things: one, there needs to be easier lairs near the human, and 2, the AI can't simply take all the lairs.

Now, note that treasure already doesn't get multiplied by cheating bonuses for the AI. So right now, a big reason for the AI to go to lairs is simply to prevent the human from doing so. However, they also get items which is important for their heroes.

But, I'd like to propose that AI go after lairs about half as often as they do now (so just set their priority much lower). Then add a few more easy lairs to the map. This should guarantee more treasure income for the human, and it will last longer (into early rare). You could even tweak this so that it lasts into late rare.

By the time you get into late rare, it doesn't matter anymore. There isn't anything left to skip. Except into SoM but that's sooo long, it isn't feasible to rush it.
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On your last post: yes, if you set most of the new income in research only buildings, then you can set them arbitrarily enough for you to set research cost anywhere.

But yes, I would build the improved shrine.. After I build the bank. I already build banks before any power/research building.
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There is no room for more lairs, it already uses the max possible amount (for Huge anyway, smaller maps get fewer to avoid freeing the map generator).
Lairs are already pretty much bottom priority for the AI but unless the AI is at war AND has enemies present on the continent, there will be nothing to attack except lairs. Basically, the AI doesn't clear lairs to prevent the player from doing it, they clear lairs because there is nothing else they can use their troops for, unless there is a war ongoing and a weak enough enemy city to attack. (or stack of units. Albeit those might have less priority than lairs if said "stack" is too weak to matter. But important stacks will likely have far higher.)

More importantly, as I said treasure is luck. Even if there are more lairs, it's still luck. It's not like I can tell the game "always put the 5 easiest lair next to the human". And luck should not have this magnitude of effect.

Also, we've intentionally made sure there are a balanced amount of easy lairs otherwise sprites and other treasure hunting strategies become overpowered.

So treasure is not a solution.

Quote:But yes, I would build the improved shrine.. After I build the bank.

Actually, wouldn't you just build halberdiers instead of the building? I mean, for the building's cost, you can get, say 2 halbderiers? Or you build the building, get 6 power a turn, but need 240 for the 2 halberdiers, so you wait 40 turns. Waiting 40 turns for no reason at all on a military strategy...sounds bad. (Albeit by this logic you don't need the bank either. Which actually is true. I don't build banks with military strategies, military races don't even have banks usually. Ultimately you'll need some money for maintenance costs eventually so you build some, but not with the intent to fuel halberdier purchase directly. Unless you already have enough halberdiers, can afford the 40 turn delay without risking to run short on troops, and expect the war to drag out significantly longer than 40 turns so you still need halberdiers by then.)

Either way, I wouldn't worry about players using the new building as some sort of a second marketplace. Sure, they can do that but it's an overpowered choice. And other buildings would be worse, you don't build wizard's guilds to buy halberdiers from the power, I suppose? (Unless that city has excess production, all other economy buildings, but can't build halberdiers itself I guess.)

Okay, so the next step is to design the income system. Ideally the ratio of production on buildings should remain the same except for the two new early buildings that get added.



We need an average income of 124 for turns 1-72. Income on turn 0 is 20 so to put the average at 124, the actual income needs to be 228.
For turns 72-168 we need 366. So that puts turn 168 at 504 income.
Finally turns 169-264 we need 1403. That puts turn 264 at 2302 income.

This is for the "slower" schedule. If we decide to go for the faster one then...
Turn 72 stays at 228. (Both schedules were 6 years for common)
Turn 144 becomes 570.
Turn 216 becomes 2504.




I don't think measuring income will get us anywhere, it's too subjective and depends on who is playing, etc. as well as being too slow.
So let's try to just approximate it based on how the game should normally progress. Assuming Fair map size, Good node strength and a fairly average medium difficulty game with a medicore but not useless wizard. For simplicity, I'll assume Alchemist Guilds stop producing power.

Turn 72 (1406) you probably fight your first war, and own about 8 productive cities, maybe a few outposts.
Out of these 4 will be developed halfway, 4 will only have basic income buildings.
Assuming you had average luck, you'll control 2 nodes.
You'll find roughly 1200 mana worth of loot (more but the rest you keep as items, spend as gold, or it wasn't a resource but a hero etc). This is 17/turn.



N = Node, BP = Basic Power building, LI = Library, UN = University, SG = Sage's Guild, WG = Wizard's Guild, PA = Parthenon, SH = Shrine, CA = Cathedral

So 2N+8BP+8LI+4UN+2PA+SG+WG+17 + Fortress = 228
2N+8BP+8LI+4UN+2PA+SG+WG = 191
We have for these currently :
28 + 0 + 0 + 20 + 8 + 9 + 13 = 68 , so another 123 needs to be added somehow.


(btw these same cities likely provide you with about 200-250 gold so this change actually puts money and power on even standing, albeit a large part of that money is spent on upkeep costs, which is fine, that's what it is mainly for.)




Next, turn 144 (or 168). (1412 or 1414)
You already conquered the first enemy fully, and the second mostly. This puts you at 16 cities, out of which, 8 are highly developed, 4 are halfway developed, 4 are still on basic buildings (likely through damage but maybe late settling or razing). You own 6 nodes. You found 2400 mana in treasure again, so it pays you for the same amount twice, but as it's already included in the income you start with in the phase once, we don't need to include that part. Yes, in reality you'll be finding quite a lot more here, but I rather encourage keeping those items and using them on heroes than to require it to be spend on spells. So we add 17 for treasure again.

6N + 16BP + 16LI + 12UN+ 8 PA + 8 SG + 8 WG + 17 + Fortress = 504 or 570
6N + 16BP + 16LI + 12UN+ 8 PA + 8 SG + 8 WG = 467 or 533
99 +  0 + 0 + 60 + 32 + 72 + 104 = 367, so here we have 100-166 missing.



Finally, in year 1418 or 1422, we already fully control the Arcanus plane and are ready to burst through to Myrror. (Or if we are very good players then already won and received max score on Time. But balancing should be done based on normal players.)
So we own 35 cities, out of which 20 are completely maxed, 7 have most of the major buildings but still miss things like cathedrals, and 8 are only halfway done (damage from the last war). We also own 14 out of the 17 node on the plane, the last three unfortunately evaded our attention or contains monsters we want to avoid.
(Yes, it's possible that we are already conquering Myrror, but have another wizard still alive on Arcanus but I'll assume that's the same amount of cities.)
Treasure by now is not a relevant percentage of income.

14N + 35BP+ 35LI + 35UN + 35PA + 27 SG + 27 WG + 20 SH + 20 CA + Fortress = 2302 or 2504
236 + 0 + 0 + 175 + 140 + 243 + 351 + 40 + 120 = 1305 but need 2282 or 2484. Here a major gap opens up, as the amplifying towers demand for more mana. 

So overall, common phase power is far too low, uncommon phase is actually not that far from actual needs, but rare phase is very far again as the Amplifying Towers demand more mana to use the skill.


(I feel we have messed up the timeline somehow though. We assumed 7 Amplifying Towers for this phase, yet 20 fully built cities. That doesn't really add up. Edit : already fixed numbers.)
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...if I assume 20 Amplifying Towers for the rare phase, we get 0 SP spending for this phase though. So maybe the 200 Skill goal for the rare phase is too low? Definitely...With a higher skill goal, we get the same amount of creatures in fewer turns, or more creatures in the same amount of turns. Which considering a larger territory and more battles are involved in this phase, sounds fair.

So recalculating the rare phase for a 300 skill goal, we get :
(20 amplifying towers)
Turns = Creatures /200 *318 = 1.59 * Creatures.
So 72 turns, 45 creatures, or 96 turns = 60 creatures.

Average skill : 200
SP = 25600 - 6241 = 19359
MP Overland = 14400 or 19200
MP Combat = 14400 or 19200
MP Upkeep = 7200 or 9600


RP = 55359 or 67359, income = 1537 or 1403.

...continuing by editing previous post.
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So conclusion of the above calculations :

"So overall, common phase power is far too low, uncommon phase is actually not that far from actual needs, but rare phase is very far again as the Amplifying Towers demand more mana to use the skill. "

Not sure how to deal with this one. I suppose there are some endgame spells that produce a lot of power and there is alchemy (by now the player might be making 500 gold a turn) or we can just assume our combat mana consumption rate is excessive. Or just say at this phase the player will be mana starved if they overdo the amplifying towers without a good plan?
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I think your casting skill expected level would keep pace with your summons. 40 casting skill in common phase is 72% of an 'average' summon . 100 casting skill in uncommon phase is 66% of an 'average' summon.

So, I would say we'd want to aim around 70% of the actual cost. For common phase, this would be 39, uncommon would be 105, rare would be 189.

Certainly not 300. That's way too high.

Yes I agree this means you're putting everything into amp towers, not into sp - but the sheer power of amp towers, its better to turn any points you would spend on skill, into gold and buy amp towers (even without alchemy). The rare phase is where this is finally reasonable to do, so I think assuming 20 amp towers, and 0 skill spending, is actually totally realistic. (Before that you can't afford it even if you dump everything into gold for amp towers; after the rare phase you have no cities left to buy amps in, so you go back to skill.)


Also, my plan for lairs was to a) remove a few high end ones (shift 5% of total lairs from hard to easy) and b) set ai priority for lair hunting to about turn/2 -20. So AI wouldn't go lair hunting at for first 40 turns, and by the time they would go hunting they could be at war instead.
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Now, the buildings themselves...

2N+8BP+8LI+4UN+2PA+SG+WG needs to be 123 higher
6N + 16BP + 16LI + 12UN+ 8 PA + 8 SG + 8 WG  should be 166 more
14N + 35BP+ 35LI + 35UN + 35PA + 27 SG + 27 WG + 20 SH + 20 CA in theory 1179 more but let's go with "the player has to deal with it though not wasting mana in combat".

BP =6, LI = 6, and we likely want to power up nodes to make sure they are still relevant (even if not the only thing that matters.), so let's assume each node gets another 3 tiles added. That covers 105 of the 123 needed power at commons. 1 more for the Sage's Guild, 1 more for the University, and now we only miss 13. This the player can cover on his own from luck, common spells, or retorts.
So we have 10 on Sage's, 6 on University, 6 on Library, 6 on the new building. That boosts the existing amounts by exactly 12/city in a 6 power, 6 research distribution. Overall, that means 25% better cities, and the 3 tiles cover 25% for nodes fairly well to keep them evenly matched.

At uncommon, we get 27+96+96+12+8=239 extra. This exceeds the goal but that can't be helped I guess. 

At rare, we get 63+210+210+35+27 = 545 extra. We needed twice as much but it's acceptable. By then the player might cover a lot of the missing amount through spells or other special sources like nightshades, volcanoes, ores.

Finally, as the actual available power will be shorter of expectations in the rare phase, I'm willing to say for this phase the RP cost does not need to actually reflect the extra mana demand created by the amplifying towers and we are safe to go with the lower RP cost previously calculated, which only had a 200 skill goal. If the player does not have the income in the first place, they have no way of dumping it into research.
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Quote:I think your casting skill expected level would keep pace with your summons. 40 casting skill in common phase is 72% of an 'average' summon . 100 casting skill in uncommon phase is 66% of an 'average' summon.

So, I would say we'd want to aim around 70% of the actual cost. For common phase, this would be 39, uncommon would be 105, rare would be 189.

Certainly not 300. That's way too high.

True...yet there is one thing - we added Amplifying Towers because we assumed at the rare phase the player does need more casting skill - they need more spells to protect and/or buff their now large territory.
So that extra skill is actually necessary, if it was not, we wouldn't need the building at all.

It's just that the skill here goes into more creatures, not a higher per unit cost - our assumption that the rare phase also need 40 summons like the others was wrong. By this time, 40 efreets are what, 1 in each city, as we assumed 35 cities. But at 300 skill you get 60 of them in the same number of turns, which leaves 1 for each city, and two-three full stacks for offense. (which, if you have losses, still isn't enough, but that's the point of the AI fighting back, to not let you win.)

See above post for more details.
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While I'm totally fine losing ship yard, I think it would also be fine to shift the new power income to the religious buildings. This would mean cult leader would grow stronger, but we can just modify the amount down to +50%. It would also mean dark rituals gets stronger, but I think that would actually be appropriate, as I think its reasonable for death to keep their income compared to others. It would also allow evil omens and evil presence to affect it.

For me, the decision should be whether evil omens should affect this income or not. Given that evil omens and evil presence are rather underwhelming spells since they already only impact a relatively small portion of the enemy power income, I believe evil omens and evil presence should affect this new power income, but I wouldn't argue terribly if it was decided the other way.

This would also leave space for a new building if that was ever desired in the future.
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On topic of needing more skill when your empire is bigger, I totally agree. Of go so far as to say, you should aim for 8 more creatures per phase, but drop common by 8 (so uncommon would stay where it is), but I also agree it shouldn't be that big a deal either way.
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