We can think about dotmapping. I've put in the obvious spot for our canal city. I'm thinking city #2?
There are a lot of hills to windmill for food.
Vairy funny joke mister. So deadpan I almost didn't catch it.
Okay so our plan is:
Worker (9)
Hunting (9)
On T10, we obviously move 1NE -- the question I now have is: do we put 2 turns into a road on that empty? Initially, I thought no because that takes us +2 turns to get the pigs up and running and then we're size 2 working an unimproved tile!
So we improve the pigs first and then ... move back on the hill? (Yes. that's what we do). If we road both hill tiles, that means that we spend 4 workers turns building roads, when we could have instead spent 2 turns moving, and 3 turns improving the rice (because by it will be one move to get to the rice).
I think we should consider going warrior-worker: if we improve the pigs, the first warrior is done on the turn we grow to size 2 (T15). Then T16 we start another worker, which is done on T20 -- with an improved rice to boot. The real question is when do we get mining: something like T18 or so? Then Bronze working comes about T30?
Then the problem is we have 2 workers with relatively little to do in the mean time (as you said).
I think improving the rice first is much more important than building a grassland mine (unless that's a copper spot) -- we grow faster and the extra food makes up for the missed hammer (I think). Care to help me understand that?
Zalson Wrote:I think improving the rice first is much more important than building a grassland mine (unless that's a copper spot) -- we grow faster and the extra food makes up for the missed hammer (I think). Care to help me understand that?
I can get back to the sim tonight and give a fuller answer and a whole micro plan and everything. (Ded lurkers are keeping me honest. ) The short answer is that while building workers as Exp, the riverside grassland mine and the rice both give 5 foodhammers, but the mine gets finished a turn earlier. I'll be honest: I'm trying to make the grassland mine micro work because it's a way of leaning in to Exp and doing something non-Exp civs can't. I'm trying to make Exp work for us, but it may well not, in this case.
This principle (make Exp do things) is the reason I went worker-warrior-warrior in the sim. Just writing from memory, I think going worker-warrior-warrior-worker was still almost too fast for the second worker. I found some road segments for the second worker to make, but it was still two turns (I think) of not doing much before Bronze Working came in. I'll play out the worker-warrior-worker line to see if we can mine some stuff while we wait for BW.
Zalson Wrote:Vairy funny joke mister. So deadpan I almost didn't catch it.
But I put in a winking face! I'll get around to dotmapping when we've scouted more. If we don't found on that hill that shares the rice and pigs, I'll have to find more things for our workers to do. I roaded all the way up to that hill to trade three worker turns for a one turn faster second city, but if we found on flatland, we save that worker labor. (Which again, could be a problem because we're so short on stuff for workers to do. )
naufragar Wrote:I can get back to the sim tonight and give a fuller answer and a whole micro plan and everything.
Sorry guys. I was too tired and kept staring at the sim in utter confusion, half falling asleep, half completely clueless about where to plant a second city. This turn fixed that. (Speaking of, it's lovely to play a turn before bed and then with the morning coffee.)
Cows! They aren't pigs, but still! I had been really nervous, thinking that our second city would pick up no new resources. Luckily, now we can. I'd like to plant city #2 1SE of the scout's current position.
I've included the event log to show that religion hasn't been founded. Note Mr. Cairo's score increase. That's from tech. Here's the demos screen:
Previous best MfG was 5. Previous best crop yield was 3. I had thought these were the same person (and I wondered what would give someone a 1/3 tile. Could be a plains forest deer/cow/whatever or a grass hill forest elephant), although the 5 MfG could have been someone with a plains hill city working a plains hill forest. Now you can see that plenty of people had 3 Crop. (By the by, a 1/3 tile for us as Exp would have been much better than a 2/2, I think.)
Cairo completed fishing. Someone, judging from the crop yield, completed and hooked up a fish (5 food pre-lighthouse). This same person was one with a 3 food crop yield. The weird thing is, as far as I can tell, to get an 8 food yield with 1 pop and no lighthouse, you would've had to plant your city on a food resource (3 food tile plus 5 food fish). But if that's the case, the city would have had a 4 hammer yield (1 from the tile, 3 from either that hypothetical 1/3 tile or from a plains hill forest). To get a workboat on turn 6 with 4 hammer output, you have to be Exp. (24*1.35=32.4) Cairo isn't Exp, so superdeath went boat first and improved the fish. He'll grow a pop point next turn.
It's a very nifty opening. I would like to get eyes on his capitol some day. Having a three hammer tile and a food resource adjacent to his settler (so he could move right on it turn 0) and a seafood (fish, no less) within one tile of the cap so a work boat could be made and hook it the same turn are all things we will have to make do without. I'd love it if someone could check my math. Demos were never my strong suit.
Props to superdeath for his micro. I'll now get back to my own sim work.
Edit: I just saw the Quote of the Moment "Oh yeah. I used to be a civ player. It's a tough racket." This must be from BGN, given his avatar's "coffee is for closers" tag line. Those guys.
Working on micro at a very leisurely pace... So far, I don't hate worker-warrior-worker as much as I thought. Preliminary dotmap: I've founded city #2 to share pigs and cow and then planted the clams + fish site helped along by a work boat from city #2, although I think I'd also be happy to found the clam + capitol rice city for #3 as well.
(Very leisurely pace...)
Edit: No pop growths. I've made a mistake somewhere.
I would go for the clam + capitol rice as #3. It also will be easy to integrate into the trade network and with the river it will be a nice commerce city. Thesh + clams spot is very safe and can be settled later.
(November 3rd, 2018, 10:38)Charriu Wrote: I would go for the clam + capitol rice as #3. It also will be easy to integrate into the trade network and with the river it will be a nice commerce city. Thesh + clams spot is very safe and can be settled later.
Yeah, you're right.
So, here's turn 41 of my plan. (Because it's a touch prettier than 40. )
The tech order was hunting-mining-BW-fishing-pottery. I've queued up Archery because I'm feeling vulnerable, but that really does postpone Animal Husbandry. I'll hopefully be able to make a more informed decision when we find neighbors.
Here's the micro:
Turn 9: Worker completes, starts to move to pig. Start warrior.
Turn 14: Pasture completes.
Turn 15: Warrior completes, moves north to fog bust for city two. Worker moves 1W to hill.
Turn 16: Worker starts mine. Capitol @ size 2 works pigs and rice. Starts second warrior. Mining is in. Start Bronze Working. (Side note: Improving the mine and improving the wet rice are exactly equivalent for this plan. Exp still not doing much of anything. )
Turn 19: Mine completes. Capitol still works the pig and unimproved rice.
Turn 20: Warrior #2 completes. Cap @ size 3 works the pigs, the mine, and the forested ivory. Second warrior goes to fog bust the southern desert.
Turn 24: Worker #2 is at 56/60 with 15 food hammers coming in. If we had worked the mine, we would overflow 15, which would be reduced to 11. Working the farm back on turn 20, we overflow 11 which gets cut down to 8. So we lose one less hammer to overflow reduction while gaining three food. Damn, Exp is horrible.
Turn 25: Worker #2 completes. Start settler. Both workers move to grassland mine.
Turn 26: Both workers road.
Turn 27: Both workers move 1NE (this is the tile 1N of the pigs). They build a road.
Turn 28: One worker moves to the forest 1E of the Cap. The other moves 1W to the forest 1NW of the pigs.
Turn 29: BW comes in. Start Fishing. Both workers start chopping.
Turn 31: Chops complete. Settler is a 86/100 with 53 coming in.
Turn 32: Settler completes. Revolt to Slavery. Worker 1W of cap moves to forest 1N of cap. Worker 1NW of pigs moves to hill 2N of pigs. Settler moves 1NE of cap.
Turn 33: Settler moves 2NE and founds. Starts warrior. Steals the capitol's pigs. Cap is working improved rice, improved pigs, forest ivory. Worker near capitol starts chop. Worker on hill by city #2 starts mine. Run 0% science slider to save a beaker.
Turn 34: Fishing completes. Start pottery.
Turn 35: Capitol worker's chop completes.
Turn 36: City #2's worker finishes mine. Capitol worker moves to join him. Settler at 92/100 at cap. 11 incoming.
Turn 37: Settler completes. Cap starts workboat. Kills me not to work floodplains, but cap needs to work rice, pig, ivory. Settler moves to rice. Both workers road the mine they're on.
Turn 38: Both workers move to cows and start pasturing. (Borders expanded this turn.) Settler moves to the tile 1NW of the rice.
Turn 39: City #2 grows to size 2. Works mine and cow, which just got pastured this turn. City #2 stops building warrior (@12/15); starts worker. Capitol takes back pig. The work boat is at 22/30 with 8 hammers incoming , so we dodge the overflow reduction. Settler moves 1W to the tile 1NE of the clams.
Turn 40: Pottery comes in. Tech choice is either Archery or Animal Husbandry, depending on how frisky our neighbors are. City #3 is founded, starts granary. Capitol finished work boat, starts granary. Workboat moves two tiles towards clam. City #3 steals cap's rice. Cap works mine, pig, floodplain. City #3 works rice. (It's annoying to miss the clam hookup by 1 turn, but I don't want the cap to whip the boat.) The workers on the cows both road, so they can get back to cap to cottage.
Turn 41: Boat nets clams. City #3 works clams. Cap works rice, pig, mine. City 2 1-pop whips worker, works the cows. It will overflow 10 foodhammers cut down to 7.
Stuff afterwards: On turn 42, the capitol doube whips its granary. City 2 completes the warrior in its queue before granary, because I'm feeling naked. If we're teching archery, we should finish archery along with the cap's granary, so the cap can regrow to 4 while building a bowman. Then at size 4 we get back to planting cities, I think.
Still feels like I'm not getting enough value out of Exp, but all this simming is wearing me out. One thing I did notice while typing this up: you can play civ pretty much entirely with a keyboard.
I think we continue northwest with the scout and get our first warrior to poke his head into the fog near the clams to make sure we don't strand seafood.
Xenu, Rusten, and Gavagai all gained a tech. This was mining. Here's the demos screen:
I guess we haven't seen a pop point growth because the work boat builder is now building a worker at size one? Otherwise, they would have had time to grow. (5 turns with 1f surplus + 3 turns with 6f surplus= 23f) I'm still chalking this up as superdeath, I think.
In my terror, I apparently forgot to take a screenshot of what the scout uncovered. More of the same. A long thin jungle pass extending northwest.
Besides us, Commodore, superdeath, and Donovan Zoi all got techs. Here's the demo screen: (I just include it when I do C&D.)
The total increase in rival soldier points was 6k amongst those three. This was very likely Hunting. I played early in the turn order, so MfG and Crop numbers may change as people fiddle with tile assignments. We're working the unimproved riverside rice and building a warrior. The worker is en route to the pigs.
(November 3rd, 2018, 10:38)Charriu Wrote: I would go for the clam + capitol rice as #3. It also will be easy to integrate into the trade network and with the river it will be a nice commerce city. Thesh + clams spot is very safe and can be settled later.
Yeah, you're right.
So, here's turn 41 of my plan. (Because it's a touch prettier than 40. )
The tech order was hunting-mining-BW-fishing-pottery. I've queued up Archery because I'm feeling vulnerable, but that really does postpone Animal Husbandry. I'll hopefully be able to make a more informed decision when we find neighbors.
Here's the micro:
Turn 9: Worker completes, starts to move to pig. Start warrior.
Turn 14: Pasture completes.
Turn 15: Warrior completes, moves north to fog bust for city two. Worker moves 1W to hill.
Turn 16: Worker starts mine. Capitol @ size 2 works pigs and rice. Starts second warrior. Mining is in. Start Bronze Working. (Side note: Improving the mine and improving the wet rice are exactly equivalent for this plan. Exp still not doing much of anything. )
Turn 19: Mine completes. Capitol still works the pig and unimproved rice.
Turn 20: Warrior #2 completes. Cap @ size 3 works the pigs, the mine, and the forested ivory. Second warrior goes to fog bust the southern desert.
Turn 24: Worker #2 is at 56/60 with 15 food hammers coming in. If we had worked the mine, we would overflow 15, which would be reduced to 11. Working the farm back on turn 20, we overflow 11 which gets cut down to 8. So we lose one less hammer to overflow reduction while gaining three food. Damn, Exp is horrible.
Turn 25: Worker #2 completes. Start settler. Both workers move to grassland mine.
Turn 26: Both workers road.
Turn 27: Both workers move 1NE (this is the tile 1N of the pigs). They build a road.
Turn 28: One worker moves to the forest 1E of the Cap. The other moves 1W to the forest 1NW of the pigs.
Turn 29: BW comes in. Start Fishing. Both workers start chopping.
Turn 31: Chops complete. Settler is a 86/100 with 53 coming in.
Turn 32: Settler completes. Revolt to Slavery. Worker 1W of cap moves to forest 1N of cap. Worker 1NW of pigs moves to hill 2N of pigs. Settler moves 1NE of cap.
Turn 33: Settler moves 2NE and founds. Starts warrior. Steals the capitol's pigs. Cap is working improved rice, improved pigs, forest ivory. Worker near capitol starts chop. Worker on hill by city #2 starts mine. Run 0% science slider to save a beaker.
Turn 34: Fishing completes. Start pottery.
Turn 35: Capitol worker's chop completes.
Turn 36: City #2's worker finishes mine. Capitol worker moves to join him. Settler at 92/100 at cap. 11 incoming.
Turn 37: Settler completes. Cap starts workboat. Kills me not to work floodplains, but cap needs to work rice, pig, ivory. Settler moves to rice. Both workers road the mine they're on.
Turn 38: Both workers move to cows and start pasturing. (Borders expanded this turn.) Settler moves to the tile 1NW of the rice.
Turn 39: City #2 grows to size 2. Works mine and cow, which just got pastured this turn. City #2 stops building warrior (@12/15); starts worker. Capitol takes back pig. The work boat is at 22/30 with 8 hammers incoming , so we dodge the overflow reduction. Settler moves 1W to the tile 1NE of the clams.
Turn 40: Pottery comes in. Tech choice is either Archery or Animal Husbandry, depending on how frisky our neighbors are. City #3 is founded, starts granary. Capitol finished work boat, starts granary. Workboat moves two tiles towards clam. City #3 steals cap's rice. Cap works mine, pig, floodplain. City #3 works rice. (It's annoying to miss the clam hookup by 1 turn, but I don't want the cap to whip the boat.) The workers on the cows both road, so they can get back to cap to cottage.
Turn 41: Boat nets clams. City #3 works clams. Cap works rice, pig, mine. City 2 1-pop whips worker, works the cows. It will overflow 10 foodhammers cut down to 7.
Stuff afterwards: On turn 42, the capitol doube whips its granary. City 2 completes the warrior in its queue before granary, because I'm feeling naked. If we're teching archery, we should finish archery along with the cap's granary, so the cap can regrow to 4 while building a bowman. Then at size 4 we get back to planting cities, I think.
Still feels like I'm not getting enough value out of Exp, but all this simming is wearing me out. One thing I did notice while typing this up: you can play civ pretty much entirely with a keyboard.
Just saw this; I'll try to give some feedback tonight.
) The short answer is that while building workers as Exp, the riverside grassland mine and the rice both give 5 foodhammers, but the mine gets finished a turn earlier. I'll be honest: I'm trying to make the grassland mine micro work because it's a way of leaning in to Exp and doing something non-Exp civs can't. I'm trying to make Exp work for us, but it may well not, in this case.
I'll get around to dotmapping when we've scouted more. If we don't found on that hill that shares the rice and pigs, I'll have to find more things for our workers to do. I roaded all the way up to that hill to trade three worker turns for a one turn faster second city, but if we found on flatland, we save that worker labor. (Which again, could be a problem because we're so short on stuff for workers to do. 
)
So far, I don't hate worker-warrior-worker as much as I thought. Preliminary dotmap: I've founded city #2 to share pigs and cow and then planted the clams + fish site helped along by a work boat from city #2, although I think I'd also be happy to found the clam + capitol rice city for #3 as well.
) 
)
One thing I did notice while typing this up: you can play civ pretty much entirely with a keyboard. 
